Thursday, April 15, 2010

[socialactionfoundationforequity:2413 A lesson for Human Resource Development (HRD) of any organization

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Organization must devote appropriate time and resources on the employees  by
 
spending  prudently on the employees :-
 
(a) for enhancement of their capacity and
 
(b) to be with them both to facilitate discharge of their duties and also at the hour of crisis.
 
 

        A.      The Tata Gesture

1.        All category of employees including those who had completed even 1 day as casuals were treated on duty during the time the hotel was closed.
2.        Relief and assistance to all those who were injured and killed
3.        The relief and assistance was extended to all those who died at the railway station, surroundings including the "Pav- Bha ji" vendor and the pan shop owners.
4.        During the time the hotel was closed, the salaries were sent by money order.
5.        A psychiatric cell was established in collaboration with Tata Institute of Social Sciences to counsel those who needed such help.
6.        The thoughts and anxieties going on people's mind was constantly tracked and where needed psychological help provided.
7.        Employee outreach centers were opened where all help, food, water, sanitation, first aid and counseling was provided. 1600 employees were covered by this facility.
8.        Every employee was assigned to one mentor and it was that person's responsibility to act as a "single window" clearance for any help that the person required.
9.        Ratan Tata personally visited the families of all the 80 employees who in some manner – either through injury or getting killed – were affected.
10.        The dependents of the employees were flown from outside Mumbai to Mumbai and taken care off in terms of ensuring mental assurance and peace. They were all accommodated in Hotel President for 3 weeks.
11.        Ratan Tata himself asked the families and dependents – as to what they wanted him to do.
12.        In a record time of 20 days, a new trust was created by the Tatas for the purpose of relief of employees.
13.        Whatg is unique is that even the other people, the railway employees, the police staff, the pedestrians who had nothing to do with Tatas were covered by compensation. Each one of them was provided subsistence allowance of Rs. 10K per month for all these people for 6 months.
14.        A 4 year old granddaughter of a vendor got 4 bullets in her and only one was removed in the Government hospital. She was taken to Bombay hospital and several lacs were spent by the Tatas on her to fully recover her.
15.        New hand carts were provided to several vendors who lost their carts.
16.        Tata will take responsibility of life education of 46 children of the victims of the terror.
17.        This was the most trying period in the life of the organisation. Senior managers including Ratan Tata were visiting funeral to funeral over the 3 days that were most horrible.
18.        The settlement for every deceased member ranged from Rs. 36 to 85 lacs [One lakh rupees tranlates to approx 2200 US $ ] in addition to the following benefits:
   a. Full last salary for life for the family and dependents;
   b. Complete responsibility of education of children and dependents – anywhere in the world.


   c. Full Medical facility for the whole family and dependents for rest of their life.
   d. All loans and advances were waived off – irrespective of the amount.
   e. Counsellor for life for each person
 
B. Epilogue

1.        How was such passion created among the employees? How and why did they behave the way they did?

2.        The organisation is clear that it is not something that someone can take credit for. It is not some training and development that created such behaviour. If someone suggests that – everyone laughs

3.        It has to do with the DNA of the organisation, with the way Tata culture exists and above all with the situation that prevailed that time. The organisation has always been telling that customers and guests are #1 priority

4.        The hotel business was started by Jamshedji Tata when he was insulted in one of the British hotels and not allowed to stay there.

5.        He created several institutions which later became icons of progress, culture and modernity. IISc is one such institute. He was told by the rulers that time that he can acquire land for IISc to the extent he could fence the same. He could afford fencing only 400 acres.

6.        When the HR function hesitatingly made a very rich proposal to Ratan – he said – do you think we are doing enough?

7.        The whole approach was that the organisation would spend several hundred crore in re-building the property – why not spend equally on the employees who gave their lives -both when alive and also after death?


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[socialactionfoundationforequity:2411 South-South Cooperation or Trilateral Diplomacy?

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South-South Cooperation or Trilateral Diplomacy?
http://www.indepthnews.net/news/news.php?key1=2010-04-16%2002:35:55&key2=1

By Jaspal Singh

IDN-InDepth NewsAnalysis

BRASILIA (IDN) – The two important events for the 'Global South' – the
India-Brazil-SouthAfrica (IBSA) and the Brazil-Russia-India-China
(BRIC) summits – will have great resonance for the future shape of
South-South cooperation, says Rathin Roy, director of the
International Policy Centre for Inclusive Growth (IPC-IG), based in
Brasilia.

IPC-IG is a joint project between the United Nations Development
Programme (UNDP) and Brazil to promote South-South Cooperation on
applied poverty research. It specialises in analyzing poverty and
inequality and offering research based policy recommendations on how
to reduce them.

IPC-IG, which is directly linked to the Poverty Group of the Bureau
for Development Policy, UNDP and the Government of Brazil, has been
closely involved in a number of the activities associated with the two
summits on April 15-16, 2010, especially the organisation of the
'Academic Forum: A Policy Dialogue' for the IBSA gathering.

Roy's derives his optimism from the fact that the first decade of the
21st century has been marked by the intersection of three debates that
previously had been conducted in separate domains with limited
interaction.

Traditionally,´the debate on global economic governance has been
situated in the G-8 and in discussions associated with the governance
of the World Bank Group, the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the
World Trade Organisation (WTO), says Roy.

The debate on development cooperation has largely been conducted from
the perspective of donors, and has mostly been about aid, whether for
or against. Foreign policy strategies have been viewed principally
from the perspective of national strategic interests and, apart from
specific initiatives rooted in the history of the Cold War, have been
typically bilateral in scope and nature, other than for past and
present superpowers.

The rapid increase in the number of emerging economies as global
players – leading to a significant re-examination of the fundamental
assumptions regarding voice, domain and the agency of global economic
governance – is closely related to their greater involvement in
development cooperation.

This is rooted in a deep historical engagement with the global South
and is based on political solidarity with other developing nations. It
is now apparent that foreign policy strategies will have to take
account of the growing role of the emerging economies in shaping the
future architecture of global economic governance and development
cooperation.

NEW PARADIGM?

"For that reason the IBSA and BRIC summits are front-page news in
capitals across the world," states Roy in an introduction to 'South-
South Cooperation: The Same Old Game or a New Paradigm?' of 'Poverty
in Focus', published to coincide with the two summits.

"The neat division between bilateral, regional and global foreign
policy strategies has become more diffuse. There is a fork in the
road," writes Roy and asks: "Will the rise of the emerging economies
portend just a broadening of the 'great game', the only result being a
little more elbow room for developing countries in their engagement
with the G-20 economies? Or will the global South seize this
opportunity to forge a new and more inclusive paradigm that secures
faster and more sustainable development for all citizens?"

The articles in this issue of Poverty in Focus address different
dimensions of this challenge. South-South cooperation has a specific
history rooted in the "making of the Third World". Will the
opportunities of the moment translate into better voice for and more
inclusive cooperation with least developed countries? Can we look
forward to exciting paradigm shifts in the discourses on global trade,
aid, development cooperation and the rhetoric of best practice?

Will emergent regional and global plurilateral groupings afford new
avenues for effective development cooperation? What does South-South
cooperation look like from the perspective of the political economy of
Sierra Leone, emerging from conflict and making heroic advances
against tremendous odds, as it establishes institutions for governance
and socioeconomic development?

In a chapter on IBSA, Dr. Daniel Flemes, a senior researcher at the
GIGA Institute of Latin American Studies, Hamburg, takes a rather
critical look at the trilateral body and asks whether IBSA will lead
to South-South cooperation or "trilateral diplomacy in world affairs"?

IBSA was launched in June 2003 in Brasilia by the three countries'
foreign ministers after informal talks during the G-8 meeting in Evian
that same year. In September 2003, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee
and Presidents Luis Inácio Lula da Silva and Thabo Mbeki founded the
G-3 during the 58th UN General Assembly.

They contributed crucially to the upset at the World Trade
Organisation (WTO) ministerial meeting in Cancun by pressing for
fundamental changes to the developed world's agricultural subsidies
regimes. Together, the IBSA countries also lobbied for reform of the
United Nations to provide a stronger role to developing countries,
which comprise the majority of UN member states.

IBSA's functional leadership in WTO negotiations and the UN reform
debate offers a countervailing force to the current hierarchy of the
global order. India, Brazil and South Africa use "voice opportunities"
provided by institutions such as the UN, the WTO and G-8 Summits to
undermine the established great powers' policies in the short term.

In the long term, IBSA's soft balancing strategy is geared to the
formation of a multipolar system based on the rule of international
law. The three countries want to become power poles of that
prospective multipolar world.

Generally, the coalition of Southern powers supports the process of
international organisation, a conduct that is usually ascribed to
middle powers, says Flemes. "But IBSA's global justice discourse is
doubtful, since Brazil and India have been striving (with Germany and
Japan) for permanent membership of the UN Security Council," he adds.

Flemes argues that India and Brazil invited South Africa to join the
group but the country had to abide by African Union guidelines, which
prevent it from fielding its candidacy on its own. The UN High-Level
Panel had suggested an alternative and more participatory plan for a
regular system of rotating members, which was rejected by India and
Brazil.

The expansion of the Security Council, however, would favour only a
few players. In order to achieve the lasting democratisation of the
organization, the General Assembly would also have to be strengthened.

Divergences between the national positions of the three Southern
powers became clear in the Doha Round negotiations. New Delhi's
position on trade-related aspects of intellectual property rights
(TRIPS) and non-tariff barriers separates it from Brasilia and
Pretoria. In particular, India demands protection against agricultural
imports, whereas Brazil advocates a broad liberalisation of the global
agricultural market.

"In addition, the national interests of the IBSA countries are partly
at odds with the interests of developing countries, which they claim
to represent. As net food importers, most of the least developed
countries (LDCs) cannot be interested in the reduction of agricultural
subsidies in Europe and the United States that keep food prices low,"
notes Flemes.

Moreover, while the WTO negotiations have hardly progressed in terms
of content, Brazil and India have been able to improve their positions
in the international trade hierarchy. At the 2004 WTO conference in
Geneva they were invited to form the G-5 preparation group together
with the European Union, the United States and Australia.

At the German G-8 Summit in 2007, Brazil, India and South Africa (with
China and Mexico) were invited to formalise their dialogue with the
elite club of the richest industrialized countries through the so-
called Heiligendamm or O-5 process.

These invitations, as well as the role of the G-20 in the handling of
the recent financial crisis, reflect increasing acceptance of the IBSA
countries' (prospective) major-power status by the established great
powers.

While the IBSA initiative may thus be seen as an effort to increase
its members' global bargaining power, the cooperation between South
Africa, India and Brazil also focuses on concrete areas of
collaboration. Trade, health, energy security and transport are only
the most prominent issues of IBSA's sectoral collaboration.

"IBSA can therefore be characterised as both a strategic alliance for
the pursuit of the common interests of emerging powers in global
institutions, and also as a platform for bilateral, trilateral and
interregional South-South cooperation," writes Flemes.

DOUBTFUL

The sectoral cooperation is to form a sound basis for trilateral
diplomacy in world affairs. But the potential synergies of IBSA's
sectoral collaboration are doubtful. In particular, the prospects for
bilateral and trilateral trade are limited by a number of constraints,
says the GIGA researcher.

The economies' different sizes and degrees of global integration lead
to different degrees of trade benefits. But the main obstacle consists
of the limited complementarities between the three markets, since
India, Brazil and South Africa produce similar goods and compete for
access to the markets of the countries of the Organisation for
Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).

Additionally, the fact that developed countries have asymmetrical
capabilities relative to the IBSA countries allows them to demobilise
the South-South alliance through cross-bargaining on a trade
chessboard of variable geometry.

But trade is merely one of many undertakings in this multidimensional
initiative. India, Brazil and South Africa are not natural trading
partners, and the limits to commercial exchanges between them should
be recognised.

While a trilateral trade agreement has been alluded to on numerous
occasions, such an ambitious undertaking is unlikely to materialise
between these three countries, which are technically bound to regional
trade blocs. A more realistic approach could involve trade
facilitation and the improvement of transport and infrastructure links
between them.

Other sectors, such as health and energy security, seem to offer more
synergies. As regards HIV/AIDS, for instance, the interests of the
three countries are quite convergent. India has the second largest
number of HIV-positive people (2.4 million) and also the largest
generic drugs industry.

Brazil has developed role-model public policies in fighting AIDS and
exports its know-how to several African, Asian and Latin American
countries. South Africa has a high demand in this regard, since it has
the largest number of HIV-positive people (5.7 million) and faces
severe constraints in democratising public health services regarding
the epidemic.

In recent years the IBSA countries have been prominent in the G-21
lobby that succeeded in lessening the negative effects of TRIPS with
regard to patents that impose high costs for HIV/AIDS drugs in
developing countries, especially in Africa.

An interpretive statement of the 2001 Doha Declaration indicated that
TRIPs should not prevent countries from fighting public health crises.
Since then, TRIPs has provided for "compulsory licensing", allowing
governments to issue licenses for drug production for the domestic
market without the consent of the patent owner.

A 2003 agreement loosened the domestic market requirement, and allowed
developing countries to export their locally produced generics to
other countries facing epidemics such as HIV/AIDS, malaria and
tuberculosis.

The energy sector is another pivotal area of cooperation, as spelled
out at a September 2006 summit in which a memorandum of understanding
on biofuels was signed.

About 62 per cent of Brazil's energy requirements are met by renewable
sources; of those, 10 per cent come from ethanol from sugarcane. In
April 2002, India and Brazil signed a memorandum of understanding on
technology-sharing in the blending of petrol and diesel with ethanol.
India is the world's largest sugarcane producer.

Solar energy and coal liquefaction are other potential areas of
cooperation. India's capabilities in the solar photovoltaic field
could be of much interest to Brazil and South Africa, given these
countries' vastness and climate.

South Africa has a highly developed synthetic fuels industry. That
industry takes advantage of the country's abundant coal resources and
has developed expertise in the technology of coal liquefaction. With a
view to the growing global energy need, this technology may be
commercially viable and could be explored by Indian companies.

NUCLEAR TECHNOLOGY

As regards future cooperation in nuclear technology, Flemes says, the
three emerging powers have stated that, under appropriate
International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) safeguards, international
civilian nuclear cooperation among countries committed to nuclear
disarmament and non-proliferation could be enhanced through forward-
looking approaches that are consistent with their respective national
and international obligations.

Brazil has controlled the full nuclear fuel cycle since March 2006.
Brazil and South Africa are among the most influential members of the
Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). Shortly after India concluded its deal
on civilian nuclear cooperation with the United States in March 2006,

Prime Minister Singh visited Pretoria, where President Mbeki announced
that South Africa would back India's bid in the NSG to be given access
to international technology for a civilian nuclear energy programme.
Supporting the deal between the United States and India, which has not
signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty, indicates a major shift in South
Africa's proliferation policy, from a rule and principle-based
approach to one that is more pragmatic. The three Southern powers seem
determined to seek large-scale synergies in nuclear energy production.

Flemes points out that the sustainability and prospects of the
trilateral undertaking are currently hard to estimate, but IBSA's
success will depend not least on its ability to focus on distinct
areas of cooperation, such as public health and energy security, and
to avoid those areas of controversy that tend to hamper the
cooperation process.

IBSA is not yet a formal organization and it has no headquarters or
secretariat. Common institutions would facilitate the effective
coordination and pursuit of IBSA's interests. Finally, enlargement of
the trilateral coalition would generate more potential synergies in
sectoral collaboration and even more weight in the institutions of
global governance.

In this regard, Flemes says, IBSA could merge with China and Russia to
form BRICSA, or with the traditional civilian powers Germany and Japan
to build a G-5, while retaining its characteristics as a small but
potentially effective coalition. (IDN-InDepthNews/16.04.2010)

Copyright © 2010 IDN-InDepthNews | Analysis That Matters

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:2411 Uzbekistan's threatened cultural legacy

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Uzbekistan's threatened cultural legacy
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/15/uzbekistan-cultural-legacy-threatened

A clampdown on Uzbek intelligentsia and civil society is compromising
the socio-cultural evolution of the country

Sonia Zilberman
guardian.co.uk, Thursday 15 April 2010 15.00 BST
Article history
One of the most totalitarian and repressive countries in the world is
trying to form its own definition of cultural progress. Recently, the
authorities in Uzbekistan have been arresting not only human rights
activists, but also religious minorities, artists and health
practitioners on the grounds of "disrespecting Uzbek culture and
people".

This begs the very basic question, what is culture? One of the most
accepted definitions, found in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, defines
culture as "the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and
behaviour that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting
knowledge to succeeding generations."

Historically, this pattern for the transmission of knowledge in
Uzbekistan has been incredibly rich. An important location on the Silk
Road route, the territory of Uzbekistan has been home to artists and
spiritual leaders such as Alisher Navoi (15th century), famous for the
cyclical collection of poems, The Hamsa; historians such as Abu Rayhan
al-Bruni (11th century) who wrote a pioneering study on India; and
leading medics like Ibn Sina (11th century), who wrote The Cannon of
Medicine. Once porous to the ideas and information that the Silk Road
carried, the World Heritage Site cities of Buhkara and Samarkand
attest to the fact that Uzbekistan was a land where ideas were born
and arts flourished: a haven for intellectuals.

Since President Karimov came to power in 1991, however, Uzbek
intelligentsia has been virtually deprived of the freedoms inherent to
cultural development. Citizens cannot form associations without prior
approval from the government, which is often restricted on a number of
politically motivated grounds. Since the Andjian Massacre of 2005,
where the government opened fire on protesters and killed as many as
500 people, more than 300 NGOs have been forced to close operations.
And this is despite the fact that the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights, protecting the freedom of association, was the first
international legal document which Uzbekistan signed after proclaiming
independence.

The legal barrier to freedom of association restricts the ability of
groups of people to form organisations which can receive grants,
conduct activities, and express a collective voice and positions on
issues ranging from government elections to healthcare to gardening.
Numerous religious minorities such as the Hare Krishnas, Baptists, and
even minority Islamic sects have been refused registration again and
again, essentially prohibiting alternative spiritual development in
the country.

Besides restricting the development of collective thought and action,
the Karimov regime has kept tight reins on the type of information
which can flow inside the country. The media is fully censored, and
websites such as the BBC World Service and Wordpress are unavailable,
making it extremely difficult for Uzbek citizens to exchange
information with the outside world. Even inside the country, the media
is forced to practice a form of self-censorship, muting any remotely
oppositional positions for fear of closure and arrest. Any perceived
political opposition is subject to heavy surveillance, arbitrary short-
term house arrest, and compromise of phone lines and email inboxes.

In the past year, persecution of independent thought has spread over
into non-political spheres. One no longer needs to be in opposition to
the government to fear persecution. It is enough to be in some way
perceived to be in opposition to the culture of Uzbekistan, to be
viewed as enemy of the state. Recently, the arrests of an ethnological
photographer and sex education worker on such grounds have
demonstrated that the culture of contemporary Uzbekistan has no space
for the flow of new information or generation of knowledge for the
improvement of future generations.

A clear example of this is the case of Umida Akhmedova. In February
2010, Akhmedova, an Uzbek photographer, was found guilty of "libel"
and "insult" charges for her photographic and cinematographic work
documenting the lives and culture of the Uzbek people. Her works
featured the Uzbek countryside, contrasts between the modern and
traditional, and life in the streets. The court decided, with the help
of "expert testimonies", that her art essentially did not portray the
country in the right way. Although Umida was granted presidential
amnesty, in large due to international pressure, the verdict set a new
precedent for the Uzbek intelligentsia. No longer can artists exercise
their freedom of expression without an overarching fear that the
government may decide that their work is "insulting" to the culture of
Uzbekistan, and therefore grounds for imprisonment.

In another case, a health practitioner, Maksim Popov was sentenced to
seven years in prison apparently as punishment for his work to raise
public awareness on the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases
and the promotion of healthy lifestyles. Popov was the leader of NGO
Izis, which focuses on work with drug addicts, sex workers and on HIV
prevention. He is also the author of the book HIV and Aids Today,
which was published with the support of Unicef and Population Services
International. This book, explaining STD prevention, was deemed
"illegal" by the criminal court of Tashkent, based on the findings of
a commission of experts that it is disrespectful to the national
culture and the Uzbek people.

These examples are indicative not only of the fact that the clampdown
on civil society in Uzbekistan is increasing in both severity and
breadth, but also that this form of repression is compromising the
socio-cultural evolution of the country. While socio-cultural
evolution theories abound, the common agreement amongst academics and
practitioners is that cultures and societies change over time, taking
into account changes in the external environment and internal systems,
and incorporating the cultural heritage of the past. Culture is
dynamic, and restricting its growth will only negatively affect the
development of the society. In looking back at the cultural richness
during flow of information on the Silk Road route, one can only hope
that the Uzbekistan of today will allow its artists, academics and
social workers to exercise their fundamental freedoms, in order to
carry the country's cultural legacy into the modern times.

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:2410 Children Forced to Beg in Senegal | Good News in Mississippi

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--- On Fri, 16/4/10, Human Rights Watch <webadmin@hrw.org> wrote:

From: Human Rights Watch <webadmin@hrw.org>
Subject: Children Forced to Beg in Senegal | Good News in Mississippi
To: "Avnish Jolly" <avnishjolly@yahoo.com>
Date: Friday, 16 April, 2010, 5:16

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The Week In Rights
April 15, 2010
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Children Forced to Beg in Senegal
Boys in Many Quranic Schools Suffer Severe Abuse

"I have to bring money, rice and sugar each day," said Modou S., a 12-year-old student in Saint-Louis. "When I can't bring everything, the [teacher] beats me … I want to stop this, but I can't. I can't leave, I have nowhere to go."

According to a new Human Rights Watch report, at least 50,000 children attending residential Quranic schools live in slave-like conditions and are forced to beg on the streets for up to 10 hours each day. Required to hand over most of the money to their teachers, the children are beaten with electric cables, clubs or canes if they bring home less than their teachers demand.

Most of these boys are younger than 12 years old and many as young as 4. They don't receive food or medicine from their teacher, who acts as a guardian, and many of the children live in squalor.    Often, as many as 30 boys sleep together in a small room. Dressed in filthy clothes and often barefoot, they weave in and out of traffic while holding out small plastic bowls, hoping for alms.

For centuries, Quranic schools have been an important place for religious and moral education, and most operate accordingly. Yet despite an increasing number of teachers who twist religious education into economic exploitation, the Senegalese government has failed to bring offenders to justice or protect these children.

Read more »
Photo: © 2007 Thomas Lekfeldt
Good News: Mississippi Stops Separating Prisoners with HIV
Alabama, South Carolina, only US States Segregating HIV Prisoners

The Mississippi Department of Corrections, after reviewing the findings of Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union, agreed to stop segregating prisoners with HIV weeks before the two groups released a report criticizing the policy.

This leaves South Carolina and Alabama as the only two remaining US states that separate prisoners based on HIV status.

The report shows how prisoners with HIV have faced unjustified isolation, exclusion, and marginalization. Low-custody prisoners with HIV have been forced to serve their sentences in more violent – and more expensive -- prisons. The opportunity for work-release programs, often a key to successful transition into society, is either restricted or denied. Many prisoners with HIV serve more prison time as a result of this and other discriminatory policies.

Public and correctional health experts agree that there is no medical basis for segregating HIV-positive prisoners. As with inmates with other chronic illnesses, HIV-positive prisoners can be cared for individually. Also, the spread of HIV can be stemmed with condom distribution, syringe exchange, and other similar measures.

Mississippi's decision to reverse its long-standing policy demonstrates that change is possible. Alabama and South Carolina can, and should, reform their own policies.

Read more »
Photo: © 2010 ACLU of Alabama
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alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets - 25 new messages in 3 topics - digest

Buzz It
alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets?hl=en

alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Football and defective behavior (Sorry, but this needs its own thread) - 21
messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/15c6e1e7f2004d2b?hl=en
* Leon reported to have signed - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b889a5f3da0f3355?hl=en
* this for a late 5th rounder - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b0378ac533dd8e8d?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Football and defective behavior (Sorry, but this needs its own thread)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/15c6e1e7f2004d2b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 4:24 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Glenn Greenstein" <lexa695@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:507cf357-03da-4cf0-a6ff-f42e5ef1c85c@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if any
> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
> "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players. The
> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic programs.
> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> actually done in practice all too often in these football factories is
> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
> matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior as
> a bfoq of a pro ball player.

OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
High school with Lyle Alzado?

Wait a minute...that place is a POWERHOUSE of NFL players....Scott Brunner
too !


== 2 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 4:33 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:202a1d03-a494-4328-9b78-77ff5c053db3@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> > violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
> > too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
> > that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
> > those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> > regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
> > year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
> > put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if any
> > real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> > brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> > football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
> > "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> > pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> > or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> > system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> > behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> > or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> > or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> > Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> > further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
> > but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players. The
> > problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic programs.
> > The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> > them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > actually done in practice all too often in these football factories is
> > the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
> > matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior as
> > a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>
> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???

Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
best ball players ???

Whoever said they make the "best" ball players. I never did. What I said
was that guys who play football tend to be less offended by violent behavior
and even those with brains and grades have sometimes had a reputation for
some rowdy behavior. I went to a school where you had to have some decent
stats to hang in with the rest of the student body, academics I mean, and
there were a lot of very bright guys with majors in business or science of
whatever who raised a lot of hell and got into a lot of trouble, and we had
a football coach who tolerated very little back in the day. I think you
have read way to0 much into this and made some gross generalizations.
BTW...I've coached against both of the fine schools you referenced...and
coached at a school who competes with them in championship games. My former
employer has some great kids, lots of them, and academic standards just as
stringent as either BC or DB.....AND....there are some football players
(historically) that do some things we would rather they didn't do....I was
one of the coaches who had to deal with it. Boys will be boys. Read the
articles about Carl Nicks of the Saints and how he has matured and changed.
The kids who get to go to DB and BC aren't exactly from a massive pool of
disadvantaged guys either. I can tell you this...when someone is "hungry"
and sees very little opportunity excepting some particular behavior, be it
football, boxing or crime....they will work very hard at that limited
opportunity. Where did you read that social defectives make the best
football players. The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
present themselves in ways other kids can.


== 3 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:15 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:6c6bb167-539a-4b08-91aa-92fcd02ac695@u34g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 1:39 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 12:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > > > > Michael wrote:
> > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > >>> People don't make good football players because they are
> > > > > >>> troubled,
> > > > > >>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
> > > > > >>> Unfortunately, all
> > > > > >>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > > > > >>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area
> > > > > >>> in NJ
> > > > > >>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as
> > > > > >>> college
> > > > > >>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both
> > > > > >>> of
> > > > > >>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
> > > > > >>> highly
> > > > > >>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write
> > > > > >>> or
> > > > > >>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
> > > > > >>> schools. Last
> > > > > >>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from
> > > > > >>> BC. They
> > > > > >>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > > > > >>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few
> > > > > >>> if any
> > > > > >>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them
> > > > > >>> have
> > > > > >>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of
> > > > > >>> good
> > > > > >>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some
> > > > > >>> other
> > > > > >>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas,
> > > > > >>> ohio,
> > > > > >>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do
> > > > > >>> little
> > > > > >>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and
> > > > > >>> then, the
> > > > > >>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
> > > > > >>> defective
> > > > > >>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent,
> > > > > >>> troubled
> > > > > >>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a
> > > > > >>> fuck-up
> > > > > >>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football
> > > > > >>> player.
> > > > > >>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > > > > >>> encouraging
> > > > > >>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
> > > > > >>> problems
> > > > > >>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
> > > > > >>> players. The
> > > > > >>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> > > > > >>> programs.
> > > > > >>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or
> > > > > >>> giving
> > > > > >>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > > > > >>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
> > > > > >>> factories is
> > > > > >>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so,
> > > > > >>> as a
> > > > > >>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
> > > > > >>> behavior as
> > > > > >>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > > > > >> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > > > > >> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became
> > > > > >> an NFL
> > > > > >> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next?
> > > > > >> Lawrence
> > > > > >> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > > > > > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well
> > > > > > make the
> > > > > > best ball players ???
>
> > > > > Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
> > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Interesting...
>
> > > > I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
> > > > right.
>
> > > > Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > > > disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into great
> > > > wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > > > thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
> > > > If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those countless
> > > > thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when pro
> > > > ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims some
> > > > pain and suffering.
>
> > > What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place. I
> > > thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> > > some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to save
> > > human kind.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of potential
> > violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
> > players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the field.
> > That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
> > be an animal to play ball.
>
> > Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat or
> > in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are trained
> > to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
> > bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
> > armed criminals.
>
> > Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
> > or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever they
> > felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
> > shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
> > about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
>
> Michael, you are taking comments I made about isolated incidents and
> making it as if I painted the whole league with the same brush. In
> Holmes case his inner violence spilled over into everyday life and I
> never said it was OK, I just said it is understandable for it to
> happen to a guy with his occupation. I really wish you would stop
> putting words in my moth and start reading what I write.

No... What you and half of the world are doing is more like you are
saying you "expect" things to happen with ball players because
football is... oooooooh violent. I keep pointing out that you don't
have to be at all violent in a criminal sense to be a ball player at
any level. The system is fucked up with denial and lack of regard for
education and self improvement while at the same time extolling the
virtues of character building and offering opportunity. Still..Lots
or people in the system are actually good teachers and take measures
to. see that ball programs are run at their best. When a team or
program unabashedly takes on repeat offenders for the sake of winning,
it perpetuates what is worst about sports. I'm not interested in
winning at all costs. The Jets did not have to take one multiple
trouble makers. What message is that sending to the fans ??? What
kind of organization is the Jets ??? It may not bother you or the
other fans, but I think setting bad examples in front of the media
like the Jets just did has far reaching effects. Negative ones. I
state this and what do I get ??? More of the same bull shit about
ball players all being defective and violent as is what is needed and
expected in their line of work.


You are passing judgement on what people say and have some preconceived
ideas. Are you aware that the incidents of violence against family or
people close to a returning soldier are way higher than the norm? Are you
aware of the rates of alcoholism and behavioral issues for professionals who
have to work in very dangerous and violent situations? That does not make
them bad people, it is an indicator of the stresses of a particular job.
People who are rewarded for acting in a violent way can sometimes have
problems isolating that violence and / or that behavior. It isn't with
everyone, and it is most likely a minority of those involved, but it
happens. My experience was there was a HELL of a lot of difference between
a QB and a LB in terms of their potential to act out. That said, most of
the LB's I worked with were quite bright and could think quickly. I'd say a
D lineman would be more likely to have some issues.....certain positions are
taught to react, don't over think it. If you can't leave that on the field
it can be a problem. Then individual temperment plays a huge role, and it
doesn't matter where the person came from or past experiences. Some guys
are hot heads, others aren't. Some very tough guys play "quiet", seem to go
inside themselves to get the job done and others are raging bulls, screaming
and carrying on to get the same results. All that aside, it is a violent
game, if you can leave it on the field....great. But a few can't. That
fact does NOT make them non-readers or social defectives or whatever else
you seem to want to call them. When I was coaching, I never was able to
"come down" after a game...after a night game, I'd still be awake at 6
AM.....I was always just way too wired to stop. That was my problem, and I
was not alone in it either. I played with a coached guys who, if they lost,
would not be in any kind of shape to act very sociable. People are very
different and very interesting.

== 4 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:15 pm
From: Tutor


On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> > violent or have personality defects.  Far from it.  Unfortunately, all
> > too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > football and violent or defective behavior.  I live in an area in NJ
> > that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > football recruitment goes.  Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco.  Both of
> > those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> > regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools.   Last
> > year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC.  They
> > put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > academic standards and plenty for athletics.  You will find few if any
> > real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> > brains enough to earn grades to get into college.  Plenty of good
> > football players canbe found in both of those schools.  In some other
> > "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> > pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> > or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> > system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> > behavior.  "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> > or disadvantaged."  Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> > or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> > Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> > further defective behavior is bad news.  There are lots of problems
> > but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players.  The
> > problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic programs.
> > The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> > them an oppertunity has been told time and time again.  What is
> > actually done in practice all too often in these football factories is
> > the exact opposite.  The wrong lessons are taught.  So much so, as a
> > matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior as
> > a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>
> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Alzado went to Lawrence?


== 5 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:18 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:aa8dab86-9026-42cd-a5cc-dd585a21a2f6@e21g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 5:24 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 3:00 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 2:07 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 1:39 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 15, 12:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > Michael wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein
> > > > > > > > > > <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net>
> > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > >>> People don't make good football players because they
> > > > > > > > > >>> are troubled,
> > > > > > > > > >>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
> > > > > > > > > >>> Unfortunately, all
> > > > > > > > > >>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn
> > > > > > > > > >>> between
> > > > > > > > > >>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in
> > > > > > > > > >>> an area in NJ
> > > > > > > > > >>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far
> > > > > > > > > >>> as college
> > > > > > > > > >>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don
> > > > > > > > > >>> Bosco. Both of
> > > > > > > > > >>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also
> > > > > > > > > >>> just as highly
> > > > > > > > > >>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant
> > > > > > > > > >>> read, write or
> > > > > > > > > >>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
> > > > > > > > > >>> schools. Last
> > > > > > > > > >>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came
> > > > > > > > > >>> from BC. They
> > > > > > > > > >>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into
> > > > > > > > > >>> college due to
> > > > > > > > > >>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will
> > > > > > > > > >>> find few if any
> > > > > > > > > >>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all
> > > > > > > > > >>> of them have
> > > > > > > > > >>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college.
> > > > > > > > > >>> Plenty of good
> > > > > > > > > >>> football players canbe found in both of those schools.
> > > > > > > > > >>> In some other
> > > > > > > > > >>> "football factory" high schools that are located in
> > > > > > > > > >>> say texas, ohio,
> > > > > > > > > >>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with
> > > > > > > > > >>> problems, do little
> > > > > > > > > >>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands
> > > > > > > > > >>> and then, the
> > > > > > > > > >>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football
> > > > > > > > > >>> and defective
> > > > > > > > > >>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's
> > > > > > > > > >>> violent, troubled
> > > > > > > > > >>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to
> > > > > > > > > >>> be a fuck-up
> > > > > > > > > >>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch
> > > > > > > > > >>> football player.
> > > > > > > > > >>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > > > > > > > > >>> encouraging
> > > > > > > > > >>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots
> > > > > > > > > >>> of problems
> > > > > > > > > >>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely
> > > > > > > > > >>> football players. The
> > > > > > > > > >>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running
> > > > > > > > > >>> athletic programs.
> > > > > > > > > >>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of
> > > > > > > > > >>> trouble or giving
> > > > > > > > > >>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again.
> > > > > > > > > >>> What is
> > > > > > > > > >>> actually done in practice all too often in these
> > > > > > > > > >>> football factories is
> > > > > > > > > >>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So
> > > > > > > > > >>> much so, as a
> > > > > > > > > >>> matter of course, people see violent and defective
> > > > > > > > > >>> social behavior as
> > > > > > > > > >>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > > > > > > > > >> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that
> > > > > > > > > >> only Brian
> > > > > > > > > >> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and
> > > > > > > > > >> became an NFL
> > > > > > > > > >> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is
> > > > > > > > > >> next? Lawrence
> > > > > > > > > >> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > > > > > > > > > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too
> > > > > > > > > > well make the
> > > > > > > > > > best ball players ???
>
> > > > > > > > > Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?-
> > > > > > > > > Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > Interesting...
>
> > > > > > > > I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was
> > > > > > > > exactly just
> > > > > > > > right.
>
> > > > > > > > Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > > > > > > > disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust
> > > > > > > > into great
> > > > > > > > wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > > > > > > > thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the
> > > > > > > > rainbow.
> > > > > > > > If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those
> > > > > > > > countless
> > > > > > > > thousands might have a much better chance at a better life
> > > > > > > > when pro
> > > > > > > > ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future
> > > > > > > > victims some
> > > > > > > > pain and suffering.
>
> > > > > > > What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the
> > > > > > > place. I
> > > > > > > thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to
> > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade
> > > > > > > to save
> > > > > > > human kind.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of
> > > > > > potential
> > > > > > violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > > > > > violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > > > > > players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that
> > > > > > ball
> > > > > > players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > > > > > perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > > > > > Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the
> > > > > > field.
> > > > > > That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You
> > > > > > gotta
> > > > > > be an animal to play ball.
>
> > > > > > Do you have any friends or family members that have been in
> > > > > > combat or
> > > > > > in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are
> > > > > > trained
> > > > > > to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > armed criminals.
>
> > > > > > Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps
> > > > > > soldier
> > > > > > or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when
> > > > > > ever they
> > > > > > felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we
> > > > > > hear
> > > > > > about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
>
> > > > > Michael, you are taking comments I made about isolated incidents
> > > > > and
> > > > > making it as if I painted the whole league with the same brush. In
> > > > > Holmes case his inner violence spilled over into everyday life and
> > > > > I
> > > > > never said it was OK, I just said it is understandable for it to
> > > > > happen to a guy with his occupation. I really wish you would stop
> > > > > putting words in my moth and start reading what I write.
>
> > > > No... What you and half of the world are doing is more like you are
> > > > saying you "expect" things to happen with ball players because
> > > > football is... oooooooh violent.
>
> > > <snip>
> > > So now you are telling me what I was saying?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > ok... lets add on mike vick and packman to round things out...
>
> > they wont cost much
>
> OK, non of the players the Jets have taken on are convicted felons.
> You are now comparing apples and oranges.- Hide quoted text

No convictions yet, Glenn. With Santonio, that may change...

Now, Glenn and Mark... On to the larger point...

I am saying this. You dont have to be mean spirited, violent in a
"criminal" sense, immature or unsavory in any way in order to be a
good football player. Hence, it is folly to make any excuses for
people based on the fact that football is a physical game. Why in the
hell are you guys resisting this ??? All you have left to do is agree
with me or mock my shitty spelling and grammar.

Past that I will say the best thing you can do to combat such problems
is to deter them. There is a guy right now someplace in high school
or college that is more brazen because he just saw what the Jets did.
He knows the public/fans/leage/university allows fuck-up'sto continue
offending so long as they can provide a service. Beat a woman, take
drugs, assault who ever... You dont have to worry about getting
punishment or having your career ended. You'll still get your money
and an NFL team uniform. Get out there and let it all hang out. Your
it and you always will be.

Seems to me there are a bunch of guys in the US Senate, Congress and running
big corporations who have and give the same message. As a matter of fact,
the former Vice President got a pass on this too....so maybe some guys in
street gangs should figure they can keep rumbling?


== 6 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:24 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:7c27ca44-19c0-46c9-925f-91d7b10bce68@5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 3:00 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 2:07 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 1:39 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 12:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Michael wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > >>> People don't make good football players because they are
> > > > > > > >>> troubled,
> > > > > > > >>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
> > > > > > > >>> Unfortunately, all
> > > > > > > >>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn
> > > > > > > >>> between
> > > > > > > >>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an
> > > > > > > >>> area in NJ
> > > > > > > >>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as
> > > > > > > >>> college
> > > > > > > >>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco.
> > > > > > > >>> Both of
> > > > > > > >>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
> > > > > > > >>> highly
> > > > > > > >>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read,
> > > > > > > >>> write or
> > > > > > > >>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
> > > > > > > >>> schools. Last
> > > > > > > >>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came
> > > > > > > >>> from BC. They
> > > > > > > >>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college
> > > > > > > >>> due to
> > > > > > > >>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find
> > > > > > > >>> few if any
> > > > > > > >>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of
> > > > > > > >>> them have
> > > > > > > >>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty
> > > > > > > >>> of good
> > > > > > > >>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In
> > > > > > > >>> some other
> > > > > > > >>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say
> > > > > > > >>> texas, ohio,
> > > > > > > >>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems,
> > > > > > > >>> do little
> > > > > > > >>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and
> > > > > > > >>> then, the
> > > > > > > >>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
> > > > > > > >>> defective
> > > > > > > >>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's
> > > > > > > >>> violent, troubled
> > > > > > > >>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be
> > > > > > > >>> a fuck-up
> > > > > > > >>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch
> > > > > > > >>> football player.
> > > > > > > >>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > > > > > > >>> encouraging
> > > > > > > >>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
> > > > > > > >>> problems
> > > > > > > >>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
> > > > > > > >>> players. The
> > > > > > > >>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running
> > > > > > > >>> athletic programs.
> > > > > > > >>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble
> > > > > > > >>> or giving
> > > > > > > >>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again.
> > > > > > > >>> What is
> > > > > > > >>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
> > > > > > > >>> factories is
> > > > > > > >>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much
> > > > > > > >>> so, as a
> > > > > > > >>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
> > > > > > > >>> behavior as
> > > > > > > >>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > > > > > > >> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only
> > > > > > > >> Brian
> > > > > > > >> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and
> > > > > > > >> became an NFL
> > > > > > > >> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is
> > > > > > > >> next? Lawrence
> > > > > > > >> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > > > > > > > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too
> > > > > > > > well make the
> > > > > > > > best ball players ???
>
> > > > > > > Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
> > > > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > Interesting...
>
> > > > > > I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > right.
>
> > > > > > Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > > > > > disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into
> > > > > > great
> > > > > > wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > > > > > thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the
> > > > > > rainbow.
> > > > > > If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those
> > > > > > countless
> > > > > > thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when
> > > > > > pro
> > > > > > ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > pain and suffering.
>
> > > > > What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the
> > > > > place. I
> > > > > thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> > > > > some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to
> > > > > save
> > > > > human kind.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of
> > > > potential
> > > > violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > > > violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > > > players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
> > > > players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > > > perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > > > Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the
> > > > field.
> > > > That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
> > > > be an animal to play ball.
>
> > > > Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat
> > > > or
> > > > in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are
> > > > trained
> > > > to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
> > > > bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
> > > > armed criminals.
>
> > > > Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
> > > > or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever
> > > > they
> > > > felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
> > > > shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
> > > > about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
>
> > > Michael, you are taking comments I made about isolated incidents and
> > > making it as if I painted the whole league with the same brush. In
> > > Holmes case his inner violence spilled over into everyday life and I
> > > never said it was OK, I just said it is understandable for it to
> > > happen to a guy with his occupation. I really wish you would stop
> > > putting words in my moth and start reading what I write.
>
> > No... What you and half of the world are doing is more like you are
> > saying you "expect" things to happen with ball players because
> > football is... oooooooh violent.
>
> <snip>
> So now you are telling me what I was saying?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

oh, yes.. that is what you were saying alright.

it would appear to me that you have overlooked or ignored what i said.

Michael, I don't know what you do for a living. But if you should commit a
crime...should you have your ability to earn that living, your current job,
taken away from you...be barred from the profession? Of course, if you keep
it up, and it becomes such a problem your lifestyle gets in the way...you
get to go to jail or your employer can just tell you to hit the bricks.
But....are you saying if a football player acts out, screws up...he should
lose his ability to earn a living at what he does best? And BTW...I don't
like people like Michal Vick or Pacman or any other guy who carries that
baggage. But, if, as in Vick's case...he payed his penalty....I can not
justify keeping him from earning a living.. Let me know how guys like Pete
Rose fit into all of this?


== 7 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:25 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 7:33 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:202a1d03-a494-4328-9b78-77ff5c053db3@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> > > violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
> > > too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > > football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
> > > that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > > football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
> > > those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> > > regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > > maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
> > > year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
> > > put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > > academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if any
> > > real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> > > brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> > > football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
> > > "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> > > pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> > > or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> > > system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> > > behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> > > or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> > > or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> > > Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> > > further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
> > > but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players. The
> > > problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic programs.
> > > The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> > > them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > > actually done in practice all too often in these football factories is
> > > the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
> > > matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior as
> > > a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>
> > OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
> > player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
> > High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
> best ball players ???
>
> Whoever said they make the "best" ball players.  I never did.  What I said
> was that guys who play football tend to be less offended by violent behavior
> and even those with brains and grades have sometimes had a reputation for
> some rowdy behavior.  I went to a school where you had to have some decent
> stats to hang in with the rest of the student body, academics I mean, and
> there were a lot of very bright guys with majors in business or science of
> whatever who raised a lot of hell and got into a lot of trouble, and we had
> a football coach who tolerated very little back in the day.  I think you
> have read way to0 much into this and made some gross generalizations.
> BTW...I've coached against both of the fine schools you referenced...and
> coached at a school who competes with them in championship games.  My former
> employer has some great kids, lots of them, and academic standards just as
> stringent as either BC or DB.....AND....there are some football players
> (historically) that do some things we would rather they didn't do....I was
> one of the coaches who had to deal with it.  Boys will be boys.  Read the
> articles about Carl Nicks of the Saints and how he has matured and changed.
> The kids who get to go to DB and BC aren't exactly from a massive pool of
> disadvantaged guys either.  I can tell you this...when someone is "hungry"
> and sees very little opportunity excepting some particular behavior, be it
> football, boxing or crime....they will work very hard at that limited
> opportunity.

> Where did you read that social defectives make the best
> football players.  

If you excuse or make little of a ball player that acts out especially
at the pro level because football is a "violent" game you are making a
horse shit assosiation. I dont need years of coaching experiece to
know that.


>The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
> talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
> present themselves in ways other kids can.- Hide quoted text -

And showing tollerance at the pro level to violence is a good way to
teach them how to act ???


== 8 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:28 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 8:15 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:6c6bb167-539a-4b08-91aa-92fcd02ac695@u34g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 1:39 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 12:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Michael wrote:
> > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >>> People don't make good football players because they are
> > > > > > >>> troubled,
> > > > > > >>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
> > > > > > >>> Unfortunately, all
> > > > > > >>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > > > > > >>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area
> > > > > > >>> in NJ
> > > > > > >>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as
> > > > > > >>> college
> > > > > > >>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both
> > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > >>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
> > > > > > >>> highly
> > > > > > >>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write
> > > > > > >>> or
> > > > > > >>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
> > > > > > >>> schools. Last
> > > > > > >>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from
> > > > > > >>> BC. They
> > > > > > >>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > > > > > >>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few
> > > > > > >>> if any
> > > > > > >>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them
> > > > > > >>> have
> > > > > > >>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of
> > > > > > >>> good
> > > > > > >>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some
> > > > > > >>> other
> > > > > > >>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas,
> > > > > > >>> ohio,
> > > > > > >>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do
> > > > > > >>> little
> > > > > > >>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and
> > > > > > >>> then, the
> > > > > > >>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
> > > > > > >>> defective
> > > > > > >>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent,
> > > > > > >>> troubled
> > > > > > >>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a
> > > > > > >>> fuck-up
> > > > > > >>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football
> > > > > > >>> player.
> > > > > > >>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > > > > > >>> encouraging
> > > > > > >>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
> > > > > > >>> problems
> > > > > > >>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
> > > > > > >>> players. The
> > > > > > >>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> > > > > > >>> programs.
> > > > > > >>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or
> > > > > > >>> giving
> > > > > > >>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > > > > > >>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
> > > > > > >>> factories is
> > > > > > >>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so,
> > > > > > >>> as a
> > > > > > >>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
> > > > > > >>> behavior as
> > > > > > >>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > > > > > >> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > > > > > >> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became
> > > > > > >> an NFL
> > > > > > >> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next?
> > > > > > >> Lawrence
> > > > > > >> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > > > > > > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well
> > > > > > > make the
> > > > > > > best ball players ???
>
> > > > > > Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
> > > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Interesting...
>
> > > > > I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
> > > > > right.
>
> > > > > Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > > > > disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into great
> > > > > wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > > > > thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
> > > > > If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those countless
> > > > > thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when pro
> > > > > ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims some
> > > > > pain and suffering.
>
> > > > What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place. I
> > > > thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> > > > some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to save
> > > > human kind.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of potential
> > > violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > > violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > > players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
> > > players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > > perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > > Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the field.
> > > That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
> > > be an animal to play ball.
>
> > > Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat or
> > > in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are trained
> > > to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
> > > bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
> > > armed criminals.
>
> > > Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
> > > or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever they
> > > felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
> > > shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
> > > about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
>
> > Michael, you are taking comments I made about isolated incidents and
> > making it as if I painted the whole league with the same brush. In
> > Holmes case his inner violence spilled over into everyday life and I
> > never said it was OK, I just said it is understandable for it to
> > happen to a guy with his occupation. I really wish you would stop
> > putting words in my moth and start reading what I write.
>
> No... What you and half  of the world are doing is more like you are
> saying you "expect" things to happen with ball players because
> football is... oooooooh violent.  I keep pointing out that you don't
> have to be at all violent in a criminal sense to be a ball player at
> any level.  The system is fucked up with denial and lack of regard for
> education and self improvement while at the same time extolling the
> virtues of character building and offering opportunity.   Still..Lots
> or people in the system are actually good teachers and take measures
> to. see that ball programs are run at their best.  When a team or
> program unabashedly takes on repeat offenders for the sake of winning,
> it perpetuates what is worst about sports.  I'm not interested in
> winning at all costs.  The Jets did not have to take one multiple
> trouble makers.  What message is that sending to the fans ??? What
> kind of organization is the Jets ???  It may not bother you or the
> other fans, but I think setting bad examples in front of the media
> like the Jets just did has far reaching effects.  Negative ones.  I
> state this and what do I get ???  More of the same bull shit about
> ball players all being defective and violent as is what is needed and
> expected in their line of work.
>
> You are passing judgement on what people say and have some preconceived
> ideas.  Are you aware that the incidents of violence against family or
> people close to a returning soldier are way higher than the norm?  Are you
> aware of the rates of alcoholism and behavioral issues for professionals who
> have to work in very dangerous and violent situations?  That does not make
> them bad people, it is an indicator of  the stresses of a particular job.
> People who are rewarded for acting in a violent way can sometimes have
> problems isolating that violence and / or that behavior.  It isn't with
> everyone, and it is most likely a minority of those involved, but it
> happens.  My experience was there was a HELL of a lot of difference between
> a QB and a LB in terms of their potential to act out.  That said, most of
> the LB's I worked with were quite bright and could think quickly.  I'd say a
> D lineman would be more likely to have some issues.....certain positions are
> taught to react, don't over think it.  If you can't leave that on the field
> it can be a problem.  Then individual temperment plays a huge role, and it
> doesn't matter where the person came from or past experiences.  Some guys
> are hot heads, others aren't.  Some very tough guys play "quiet", seem to go
> inside themselves to get the job done and others are raging bulls, screaming
> and carrying on to get the same results.  All that aside, it is a violent
> game, if you can leave it on the field....great.  But a few can't.  That
> fact does NOT make them non-readers or social defectives or whatever else
> you seem to want to call them.  When I was coaching, I never was able to
> "come down" after a game...after a night game, I'd still be awake at 6
> AM.....I was always just way too wired to stop.  That

Papa... Agree 100 % that the understanding and tollerance level should
be at a very fair level for younger people. No argument from me.

== 9 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:28 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:91a25108-ac58-4fff-9708-64fe9e647f24@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 2:19 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> Michael wrote:
> > On Apr 15, 1:57 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> >> Michael wrote:
> >>> On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>>> On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> >>>>>> Michael wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> People don't make good football players because they are
> >>>>>>>>> troubled,
> >>>>>>>>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately,
> >>>>>>>>> all
> >>>>>>>>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> >>>>>>>>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in
> >>>>>>>>> NJ
> >>>>>>>>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> >>>>>>>>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both
> >>>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
> >>>>>>>>> highly
> >>>>>>>>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> >>>>>>>>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools.
> >>>>>>>>> Last
> >>>>>>>>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC.
> >>>>>>>>> They
> >>>>>>>>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> >>>>>>>>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few
> >>>>>>>>> if any
> >>>>>>>>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them
> >>>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> >>>>>>>>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some
> >>>>>>>>> other
> >>>>>>>>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas,
> >>>>>>>>> ohio,
> >>>>>>>>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do
> >>>>>>>>> little
> >>>>>>>>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then,
> >>>>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
> >>>>>>>>> defective
> >>>>>>>>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent,
> >>>>>>>>> troubled
> >>>>>>>>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a
> >>>>>>>>> fuck-up
> >>>>>>>>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football
> >>>>>>>>> player.
> >>>>>>>>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> >>>>>>>>> encouraging
> >>>>>>>>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
> >>>>>>>>> problems
> >>>>>>>>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
> >>>>>>>>> players. The
> >>>>>>>>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> >>>>>>>>> programs.
> >>>>>>>>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or
> >>>>>>>>> giving
> >>>>>>>>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> >>>>>>>>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
> >>>>>>>>> factories is
> >>>>>>>>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as
> >>>>>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
> >>>>>>>>> behavior as
> >>>>>>>>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> >>>>>>>> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> >>>>>>>> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an
> >>>>>>>> NFL
> >>>>>>>> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next?
> >>>>>>>> Lawrence
> >>>>>>>> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
> >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>>>>>> Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
> >>>>>>> Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> best ball players ???
> >>>>>> Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
> >>>>>> quoted text -
> >>>>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>>>> Interesting...
> >>>>> I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
> >>>>> right.
> >>>>> Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> >>>>> disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into great
> >>>>> wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> >>>>> thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
> >>>>> If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those countless
> >>>>> thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when pro
> >>>>> ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims some
> >>>>> pain and suffering.
> >>>> What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place. I
> >>>> thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> >>>> some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to
> >>>> save
> >>>> human kind.- Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of potential
> >>> violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> >>> violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> >>> players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
> >>> players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> >>> perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> >>> Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the field.
> >>> That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
> >>> be an animal to play ball.
> >>> Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat or
> >>> in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are trained
> >>> to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
> >>> bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
> >>> armed criminals.
> >>> Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
> >>> or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever they
> >>> felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
> >>> shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
> >>> about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
> >> You're all over the map here, Michael. But at least you're not trying
> >> to rewrite the definition of violent anymore.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Please don't fault me if cognitive thinking is not one of your
> > specialties.
>
> Don't lash out at me just because your panties are all in a twist.- Hide
> quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Jeez... Of all people... A Patriots fan not agreeing on the value of
team character issues. I know that the Pats took in a few problem
cases BECAUSE THEY COULD, but dont you think that building on
character trumps a team that builds on talent considerations to the
exclusion of character ??? I mean, really...Look at what I am saying
about the value of setting examples... If the Pats did not have
character and real good leaders, how would they have done with
Moss ??? What if Moss went to the Cowboys and not the Patriots ???
See what I mean ???

Character issues stopped being important in this culture a long time
ago.....Jimmy Swaggart, Slick Willie Clinton and Georgie Boy
Bush....character???????? Do you think Jerry Jones has "character" ? Is
Donald Trump a principaled person with a high degree of integrity and
character? Do most of the TV talk show clowns show character? or do they
say whatever gets ratings?


== 10 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:31 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"MZ" <mark@nospam.void> wrote in message
news:QuGdndTC_IId-FrWnZ2dnUVZ_qGonZ2d@giganews.com...
> Michael wrote:
>> On Apr 15, 3:04 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Apr 15, 2:29 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Apr 15, 2:19 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>>>>> Michael wrote:
>>>>>> On Apr 15, 1:57 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>>>>>>> Michael wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Michael wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People don't make good football players because they are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> troubled,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> area in NJ
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> college
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> highly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools. Last
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BC. They
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few if any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> texas, ohio,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> troubled
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fuck-up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> player.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> encouraging
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> players. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> programs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> factories is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so, as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> behavior as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an NFL
>>>>>>>>>>>>> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lawrence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>>>>>>>> Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>>>>>>>>>>>> Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well
>>>>>>>>>>>> make the
>>>>>>>>>>>> best ball players ???
>>>>>>>>>>> Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
>>>>>>>>>>> quoted text -
>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting...
>>>>>>>>>> I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly
>>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>>> right.
>>>>>>>>>> Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
>>>>>>>>>> disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into
>>>>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>>>>> wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
>>>>>>>>>> thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the
>>>>>>>>>> rainbow.
>>>>>>>>>> If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those
>>>>>>>>>> countless
>>>>>>>>>> thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when
>>>>>>>>>> pro
>>>>>>>>>> ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims
>>>>>>>>>> some
>>>>>>>>>> pain and suffering.
>>>>>>>>> What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the
>>>>>>>>> place. I
>>>>>>>>> thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
>>>>>>>>> some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to
>>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>>>> human kind.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>>>> If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of
>>>>>>>> potential
>>>>>>>> violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
>>>>>>>> violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
>>>>>>>> players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
>>>>>>>> players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
>>>>>>>> perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
>>>>>>>> Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the
>>>>>>>> field.
>>>>>>>> That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You
>>>>>>>> gotta
>>>>>>>> be an animal to play ball.
>>>>>>>> Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are
>>>>>>>> trained
>>>>>>>> to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
>>>>>>>> bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> armed criminals.
>>>>>>>> Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps
>>>>>>>> soldier
>>>>>>>> or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever
>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>> felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
>>>>>>>> shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we
>>>>>>>> hear
>>>>>>>> about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
>>>>>>> You're all over the map here, Michael. But at least you're not
>>>>>>> trying
>>>>>>> to rewrite the definition of violent anymore.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>> Please don't fault me if cognitive thinking is not one of your
>>>>>> specialties.
>>>>> Don't lash out at me just because your panties are all in a twist.-
>>>>> Hide quoted text -
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>> Jeez... Of all people... A Patriots fan not agreeing on the value of
>>>> team character issues. I know that the Pats took in a few problem
>>>> cases BECAUSE THEY COULD, but dont you think that building on
>>>> character trumps a team that builds on talent considerations to the
>>>> exclusion of character ??? I mean, really...Look at what I am saying
>>>> about the value of setting examples... If the Pats did not have
>>>> character and real good leaders, how would they have done with
>>>> Moss ??? What if Moss went to the Cowboys and not the Patriots ???
>>>> See what I mean ???
>>> If Moss went to a Cowboys team that was winning and a SB contender, he
>>> would have been just the same. Come on, he was on the Raiders.- Hide
>>> quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> the vikes were in contention too, no ???
>
> Yeah, he sucked on the Vikings.
>
> You draw conclusions way too readily, Michael. And then you refuse to
> budge from those conclusions. A guy says something you don't like to the
> press, and all of a sudden he's a troublemaker. Moss is a team captain in
> New England. He's one of the hardest working players on the team. The
> same things were true in Minnesota too. But he's an asshole to the media,
> even to this day. They bait him and he bites every time. In your mind,
> that means he'd only be productive on a team with high character guys
> (whatever that means...).
>
> Please, whatever you do, don't watch Fox News. You'll believe everything
> they say too and turn right wing on us.

And maybe even get violent....Hell, Sarah wants us to all get our guns ! :-)


== 11 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:40 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 8:18 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:aa8dab86-9026-42cd-a5cc-dd585a21a2f6@e21g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 5:24 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 15, 3:02 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 3:00 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 2:07 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 15, 1:39 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 15, 12:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Michael wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein
> > > > > > > > > > > <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net>
> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > >>> People don't make good football players because they
> > > > > > > > > > >>> are troubled,
> > > > > > > > > > >>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
> > > > > > > > > > >>> Unfortunately, all
> > > > > > > > > > >>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn
> > > > > > > > > > >>> between
> > > > > > > > > > >>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in
> > > > > > > > > > >>> an area in NJ
> > > > > > > > > > >>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far
> > > > > > > > > > >>> as college
> > > > > > > > > > >>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don
> > > > > > > > > > >>> Bosco. Both of
> > > > > > > > > > >>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also
> > > > > > > > > > >>> just as highly
> > > > > > > > > > >>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant
> > > > > > > > > > >>> read, write or
> > > > > > > > > > >>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
> > > > > > > > > > >>> schools. Last
> > > > > > > > > > >>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came
> > > > > > > > > > >>> from BC. They
> > > > > > > > > > >>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into
> > > > > > > > > > >>> college due to
> > > > > > > > > > >>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will
> > > > > > > > > > >>> find few if any
> > > > > > > > > > >>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all
> > > > > > > > > > >>> of them have
> > > > > > > > > > >>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college.
> > > > > > > > > > >>> Plenty of good
> > > > > > > > > > >>> football players canbe found in both of those schools.
> > > > > > > > > > >>> In some other
> > > > > > > > > > >>> "football factory" high schools that are located in
> > > > > > > > > > >>> say texas, ohio,
> > > > > > > > > > >>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with
> > > > > > > > > > >>> problems, do little
> > > > > > > > > > >>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands
> > > > > > > > > > >>> and then, the
> > > > > > > > > > >>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football
> > > > > > > > > > >>> and defective
> > > > > > > > > > >>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's
> > > > > > > > > > >>> violent, troubled
> > > > > > > > > > >>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to
> > > > > > > > > > >>> be a fuck-up
> > > > > > > > > > >>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch
> > > > > > > > > > >>> football player.
> > > > > > > > > > >>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > > > > > > > > > >>> encouraging
> > > > > > > > > > >>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots
> > > > > > > > > > >>> of problems
> > > > > > > > > > >>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely
> > > > > > > > > > >>> football players. The
> > > > > > > > > > >>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running
> > > > > > > > > > >>> athletic programs.
> > > > > > > > > > >>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of
> > > > > > > > > > >>> trouble or giving
> > > > > > > > > > >>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again.
> > > > > > > > > > >>> What is
> > > > > > > > > > >>> actually done in practice all too often in these
> > > > > > > > > > >>> football factories is
> > > > > > > > > > >>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So
> > > > > > > > > > >>> much so, as a
> > > > > > > > > > >>> matter of course, people see violent and defective
> > > > > > > > > > >>> social behavior as
> > > > > > > > > > >>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > > > > > > > > > >> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that
> > > > > > > > > > >> only Brian
> > > > > > > > > > >> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and
> > > > > > > > > > >> became an NFL
> > > > > > > > > > >> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is
> > > > > > > > > > >> next? Lawrence
> > > > > > > > > > >> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too
> > > > > > > > > > > well make the
> > > > > > > > > > > best ball players ???
>
> > > > > > > > > > Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?-
> > > > > > > > > > Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > Interesting...
>
> > > > > > > > > I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was
> > > > > > > > > exactly just
> > > > > > > > > right.
>
> > > > > > > > > Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > > > > > > > > disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust
> > > > > > > > > into great
> > > > > > > > > wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > > > > > > > > thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the
> > > > > > > > > rainbow.
> > > > > > > > > If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those
> > > > > > > > > countless
> > > > > > > > > thousands might have a much better chance at a better life
> > > > > > > > > when pro
> > > > > > > > > ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future
> > > > > > > > > victims some
> > > > > > > > > pain and suffering.
>
> > > > > > > > What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the
> > > > > > > > place. I
> > > > > > > > thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to
> > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade
> > > > > > > > to save
> > > > > > > > human kind.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of
> > > > > > > potential
> > > > > > > violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > > > > > > violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > > > > > > players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that
> > > > > > > ball
> > > > > > > players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > > > > > > perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > > > > > > Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the
> > > > > > > field.
> > > > > > > That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You
> > > > > > > gotta
> > > > > > > be an animal to play ball.
>
> > > > > > > Do you have any friends or family members that have been in
> > > > > > > combat or
> > > > > > > in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are
> > > > > > > trained
> > > > > > > to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training
> > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > armed criminals.
>
> > > > > > > Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps
> > > > > > > soldier
> > > > > > > or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when
> > > > > > > ever they
> > > > > > > felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we
> > > > > > > hear
> > > > > > > about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
>
> > > > > > Michael, you are taking comments I made about isolated incidents
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > making it as if I painted the whole league with the same brush. In
> > > > > > Holmes case his inner violence spilled over into everyday life and
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > never said it was OK, I just said it is understandable for it to
> > > > > > happen to a guy with his occupation. I really wish you would stop
> > > > > > putting words in my moth and start reading what I write.
>
> > > > > No... What you and half of the world are doing is more like you are
> > > > > saying you "expect" things to happen with ball players because
> > > > > football is... oooooooh violent.
>
> > > > <snip>
> > > > So now you are telling me what I was saying?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > ok... lets add on mike vick and packman to round things out...
>
> > > they wont cost much
>
> > OK, non of the players the Jets have taken on are convicted felons.
> > You are now comparing apples and oranges.- Hide quoted text
>
> No convictions yet, Glenn.  With Santonio, that may change...
>
> Now, Glenn and Mark... On to the larger point...
>
> I am saying this.  You dont have to be mean spirited, violent in a
> "criminal" sense, immature or unsavory in any way in order to be a
> good football player.  Hence, it is folly to make any excuses for
> people based on the fact that football is a physical game.  Why in the
> hell are you guys resisting this ??? All you have left to do is agree
> with me or mock my shitty spelling and grammar.
>
> Past that I will say the best thing you can do to combat such problems
> is to deter them.  There is a guy right now someplace in high school
> or college that is more brazen because he just saw what the Jets did.
> He knows the public/fans/leage/university allows fuck-up'sto  continue
> offending so long as they can provide a service.  Beat a woman, take
> drugs, assault who ever... You dont have to worry about getting
> punishment or having your career ended.  You'll still get your money
> and an NFL team uniform.  Get out there and let it all hang out.  Your
> it and you always will be.
>
> Seems to me there are a bunch of guys in the US Senate, Congress and running
> big corporations who have and give the same message.  As a matter of fact,
> the former Vice President got a pass on this too....so maybe some guys in
> street gangs should figure they can keep rumbling?

i'm with you here... the white collar guys that offend should all see
the inside of a jail cell..


== 12 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:41 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 8:28 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:91a25108-ac58-4fff-9708-64fe9e647f24@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 2:19 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Michael wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 1:57 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> > >> Michael wrote:
> > >>> On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >>>>> On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> > >>>>>> Michael wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> People don't make good football players because they are
> > >>>>>>>>> troubled,
> > >>>>>>>>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately,
> > >>>>>>>>> all
> > >>>>>>>>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > >>>>>>>>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in
> > >>>>>>>>> NJ
> > >>>>>>>>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > >>>>>>>>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both
> > >>>>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
> > >>>>>>>>> highly
> > >>>>>>>>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > >>>>>>>>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools.
> > >>>>>>>>> Last
> > >>>>>>>>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC.
> > >>>>>>>>> They
> > >>>>>>>>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > >>>>>>>>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few
> > >>>>>>>>> if any
> > >>>>>>>>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them
> > >>>>>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> > >>>>>>>>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some
> > >>>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>>>>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas,
> > >>>>>>>>> ohio,
> > >>>>>>>>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do
> > >>>>>>>>> little
> > >>>>>>>>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then,
> > >>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
> > >>>>>>>>> defective
> > >>>>>>>>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent,
> > >>>>>>>>> troubled
> > >>>>>>>>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a
> > >>>>>>>>> fuck-up
> > >>>>>>>>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football
> > >>>>>>>>> player.
> > >>>>>>>>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > >>>>>>>>> encouraging
> > >>>>>>>>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
> > >>>>>>>>> problems
> > >>>>>>>>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
> > >>>>>>>>> players. The
> > >>>>>>>>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> > >>>>>>>>> programs.
> > >>>>>>>>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or
> > >>>>>>>>> giving
> > >>>>>>>>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > >>>>>>>>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
> > >>>>>>>>> factories is
> > >>>>>>>>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as
> > >>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
> > >>>>>>>>> behavior as
> > >>>>>>>>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > >>>>>>>> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > >>>>>>>> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an
> > >>>>>>>> NFL
> > >>>>>>>> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next?
> > >>>>>>>> Lawrence
> > >>>>>>>> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
> > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
> > >>>>>>> Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
> > >>>>>>> Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> best ball players ???
> > >>>>>> Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
> > >>>>>> quoted text -
> > >>>>>> - Show quoted text -
> > >>>>> Interesting...
> > >>>>> I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
> > >>>>> right.
> > >>>>> Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > >>>>> disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into great
> > >>>>> wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > >>>>> thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
> > >>>>> If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those countless
> > >>>>> thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when pro
> > >>>>> ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims some
> > >>>>> pain and suffering.
> > >>>> What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place. I
> > >>>> thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> > >>>> some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to
> > >>>> save
> > >>>> human kind.- Hide quoted text -
> > >>>> - Show quoted text -
> > >>> If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of potential
> > >>> violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > >>> violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > >>> players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
> > >>> players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > >>> perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > >>> Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the field.
> > >>> That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
> > >>> be an animal to play ball.
> > >>> Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat or
> > >>> in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are trained
> > >>> to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
> > >>> bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
> > >>> armed criminals.
> > >>> Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
> > >>> or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever they
> > >>> felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
> > >>> shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
> > >>> about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
> > >> You're all over the map here, Michael. But at least you're not trying
> > >> to rewrite the definition of violent anymore.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Please don't fault me if cognitive thinking is not one of your
> > > specialties.
>
> > Don't lash out at me just because your panties are all in a twist.- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Jeez... Of all people... A Patriots fan not agreeing on the value of
> team character issues.  I know that the Pats took in a few problem
> cases BECAUSE THEY COULD, but dont you think that building on
> character trumps a team that builds on talent considerations to the
> exclusion of character ???  I mean, really...Look at what I am saying
> about the value of setting examples... If the Pats did not have
> character and real good leaders, how would they have done with
> Moss ??? What if Moss went to the Cowboys and not the Patriots ???
> See what I mean ???
>
> Character issues stopped being important in this culture a long time
> ago.....Jimmy Swaggart, Slick Willie Clinton and Georgie Boy
> Bush....character????????  Do you think Jerry Jones has "character" ?  Is
> Donald Trump a principaled person with a high degree of integrity and
> character?  Do most of the TV talk show clowns show character?  or do they
> say whatever gets ratings?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

yes... and two wrongs dont make a right... neither do twenty wrongs...


== 13 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:50 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:4cfcef66-2683-44a0-8cf0-61aca9d67507@o24g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 8:15 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:6c6bb167-539a-4b08-91aa-92fcd02ac695@u34g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 1:39 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 12:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Michael wrote:
> > > > > > > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > >>> People don't make good football players because they are
> > > > > > >>> troubled,
> > > > > > >>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
> > > > > > >>> Unfortunately, all
> > > > > > >>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn
> > > > > > >>> between
> > > > > > >>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an
> > > > > > >>> area
> > > > > > >>> in NJ
> > > > > > >>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as
> > > > > > >>> college
> > > > > > >>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco.
> > > > > > >>> Both
> > > > > > >>> of
> > > > > > >>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
> > > > > > >>> highly
> > > > > > >>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read,
> > > > > > >>> write
> > > > > > >>> or
> > > > > > >>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
> > > > > > >>> schools. Last
> > > > > > >>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from
> > > > > > >>> BC. They
> > > > > > >>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due
> > > > > > >>> to
> > > > > > >>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find
> > > > > > >>> few
> > > > > > >>> if any
> > > > > > >>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of
> > > > > > >>> them
> > > > > > >>> have
> > > > > > >>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of
> > > > > > >>> good
> > > > > > >>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In
> > > > > > >>> some
> > > > > > >>> other
> > > > > > >>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say
> > > > > > >>> texas,
> > > > > > >>> ohio,
> > > > > > >>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems,
> > > > > > >>> do
> > > > > > >>> little
> > > > > > >>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and
> > > > > > >>> then, the
> > > > > > >>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
> > > > > > >>> defective
> > > > > > >>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent,
> > > > > > >>> troubled
> > > > > > >>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a
> > > > > > >>> fuck-up
> > > > > > >>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football
> > > > > > >>> player.
> > > > > > >>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > > > > > >>> encouraging
> > > > > > >>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
> > > > > > >>> problems
> > > > > > >>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
> > > > > > >>> players. The
> > > > > > >>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> > > > > > >>> programs.
> > > > > > >>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble
> > > > > > >>> or
> > > > > > >>> giving
> > > > > > >>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What
> > > > > > >>> is
> > > > > > >>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
> > > > > > >>> factories is
> > > > > > >>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much
> > > > > > >>> so,
> > > > > > >>> as a
> > > > > > >>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
> > > > > > >>> behavior as
> > > > > > >>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > > > > > >> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only
> > > > > > >> Brian
> > > > > > >> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and
> > > > > > >> became
> > > > > > >> an NFL
> > > > > > >> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next?
> > > > > > >> Lawrence
> > > > > > >> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > > > > > > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well
> > > > > > > make the
> > > > > > > best ball players ???
>
> > > > > > Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
> > > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Interesting...
>
> > > > > I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
> > > > > right.
>
> > > > > Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > > > > disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into
> > > > > great
> > > > > wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > > > > thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
> > > > > If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those
> > > > > countless
> > > > > thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when
> > > > > pro
> > > > > ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims
> > > > > some
> > > > > pain and suffering.
>
> > > > What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place.
> > > > I
> > > > thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> > > > some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to
> > > > save
> > > > human kind.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of potential
> > > violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > > violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > > players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
> > > players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > > perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > > Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the field.
> > > That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
> > > be an animal to play ball.
>
> > > Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat or
> > > in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are trained
> > > to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
> > > bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
> > > armed criminals.
>
> > > Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
> > > or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever they
> > > felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
> > > shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
> > > about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
>
> > Michael, you are taking comments I made about isolated incidents and
> > making it as if I painted the whole league with the same brush. In
> > Holmes case his inner violence spilled over into everyday life and I
> > never said it was OK, I just said it is understandable for it to
> > happen to a guy with his occupation. I really wish you would stop
> > putting words in my moth and start reading what I write.
>
> No... What you and half of the world are doing is more like you are
> saying you "expect" things to happen with ball players because
> football is... oooooooh violent. I keep pointing out that you don't
> have to be at all violent in a criminal sense to be a ball player at
> any level. The system is fucked up with denial and lack of regard for
> education and self improvement while at the same time extolling the
> virtues of character building and offering opportunity. Still..Lots
> or people in the system are actually good teachers and take measures
> to. see that ball programs are run at their best. When a team or
> program unabashedly takes on repeat offenders for the sake of winning,
> it perpetuates what is worst about sports. I'm not interested in
> winning at all costs. The Jets did not have to take one multiple
> trouble makers. What message is that sending to the fans ??? What
> kind of organization is the Jets ??? It may not bother you or the
> other fans, but I think setting bad examples in front of the media
> like the Jets just did has far reaching effects. Negative ones. I
> state this and what do I get ??? More of the same bull shit about
> ball players all being defective and violent as is what is needed and
> expected in their line of work.
>
> You are passing judgement on what people say and have some preconceived
> ideas. Are you aware that the incidents of violence against family or
> people close to a returning soldier are way higher than the norm? Are you
> aware of the rates of alcoholism and behavioral issues for professionals
> who
> have to work in very dangerous and violent situations? That does not make
> them bad people, it is an indicator of the stresses of a particular job.
> People who are rewarded for acting in a violent way can sometimes have
> problems isolating that violence and / or that behavior. It isn't with
> everyone, and it is most likely a minority of those involved, but it
> happens. My experience was there was a HELL of a lot of difference between
> a QB and a LB in terms of their potential to act out. That said, most of
> the LB's I worked with were quite bright and could think quickly. I'd say
> a
> D lineman would be more likely to have some issues.....certain positions
> are
> taught to react, don't over think it. If you can't leave that on the field
> it can be a problem. Then individual temperment plays a huge role, and it
> doesn't matter where the person came from or past experiences. Some guys
> are hot heads, others aren't. Some very tough guys play "quiet", seem to
> go
> inside themselves to get the job done and others are raging bulls,
> screaming
> and carrying on to get the same results. All that aside, it is a violent
> game, if you can leave it on the field....great. But a few can't. That
> fact does NOT make them non-readers or social defectives or whatever else
> you seem to want to call them. When I was coaching, I never was able to
> "come down" after a game...after a night game, I'd still be awake at 6
> AM.....I was always just way too wired to stop. That

Papa... Agree 100 % that the understanding and tollerance level should
be at a very fair level for younger people. No argument from me.

Good....because a lot of these guys coming into the NFL are effectively
"very young" and socially immature. I've been in the position of taking a
bunch of them on a road trip and being aware I needed to prep a few kids on
how to act in the resteraunt we would use, or how to act at the hotel we
stayed at....they just hadn't had those experiences in their own lives.
That was not their fault. A lot of these guys were identified early on as
potential stars, when they were in Pop Warner even. They had junior high
coaches who used them to pave their own career paths to a better job, they
had way too many people covering up some of their mistakes...all kinds of
things, and a lot of them just didn't have the life experiences to equip
them to go out into the world with several millions of dollars at their
disposal. And....some are just not very nice people...but you know what,
several of the guys I coached with wern't either. And when I left coaching,
I had a CFO at the hospital system I worked for who should have a special
place in Hell....but, that's life. I learned a long time ago I don't have
to like somebody to work with them, and I don't have to act like them
either. Apparently, Rex sees something in these guys. Bill Parcells did
too. Maybe Rex can do what Tuna did. Keshawn seems to be a gentleman
these days. That was not the story when he was first a Jet. And how about
Brian Cox? I would have had a real hard time putting up with him before BP
got into his head. Let's see what Rex does with these guys.


== 14 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:53 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:82542dde-a29c-4477-96cd-512c2076aaf0@22g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 7:33 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:202a1d03-a494-4328-9b78-77ff5c053db3@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> > > violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
> > > too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > > football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
> > > that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > > football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
> > > those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> > > regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > > maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
> > > year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
> > > put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > > academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if any
> > > real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> > > brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> > > football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
> > > "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> > > pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> > > or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> > > system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> > > behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> > > or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> > > or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> > > Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> > > further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
> > > but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players. The
> > > problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic programs.
> > > The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> > > them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > > actually done in practice all too often in these football factories is
> > > the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
> > > matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior as
> > > a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>
> > OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
> > player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
> > High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
> best ball players ???
>
> Whoever said they make the "best" ball players. I never did. What I said
> was that guys who play football tend to be less offended by violent
> behavior
> and even those with brains and grades have sometimes had a reputation for
> some rowdy behavior. I went to a school where you had to have some decent
> stats to hang in with the rest of the student body, academics I mean, and
> there were a lot of very bright guys with majors in business or science of
> whatever who raised a lot of hell and got into a lot of trouble, and we
> had
> a football coach who tolerated very little back in the day. I think you
> have read way to0 much into this and made some gross generalizations.
> BTW...I've coached against both of the fine schools you referenced...and
> coached at a school who competes with them in championship games. My
> former
> employer has some great kids, lots of them, and academic standards just as
> stringent as either BC or DB.....AND....there are some football players
> (historically) that do some things we would rather they didn't do....I was
> one of the coaches who had to deal with it. Boys will be boys. Read the
> articles about Carl Nicks of the Saints and how he has matured and
> changed.
> The kids who get to go to DB and BC aren't exactly from a massive pool of
> disadvantaged guys either. I can tell you this...when someone is "hungry"
> and sees very little opportunity excepting some particular behavior, be it
> football, boxing or crime....they will work very hard at that limited
> opportunity.

> Where did you read that social defectives make the best
> football players.

If you excuse or make little of a ball player that acts out especially
at the pro level because football is a "violent" game you are making a
horse shit assosiation. I dont need years of coaching experiece to
know that.


>The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
> talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
> present themselves in ways other kids can.- Hide quoted text -

And showing tollerance at the pro level to violence is a good way to
teach them how to act ???

Did he get arrested? Did he get fined? Does he pay a price for his
behavior according to the standards the league sets up? That is what we go
by. I don't tolerate or condone the behavior. But I'll be damned if I'm
going to pass the final judgement on someone. Let's take the principal you
suggest to all jobs then. Screw up, act out, commit a violent act...and you
are on the streets, jobless and homeless.....I think we'd have a lot of
politicians involved in that gang then.


== 15 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:59 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 8:50 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:


<SNIP>

> Papa... Agree 100 % that the understanding and tollerance level should
> be at a very fair level for younger people.  No argument from me.
>
> Good....because a lot of these guys coming into the NFL are effectively
> "very young" and socially immature.  

Of course... And would you not agree that in both high school and
college there are plenty of coaches that are not very good
teachers ??? Some that might even revel a bit in a kid that shows
signs of trouble ??? Perhaps looking at troubled or violent kid as
nothing more than a cash cow ??? Are there not high school and college
coaches that know all about roids and who's takin' 'em ??? Turn a
blind eye cause it is good for your record and good for the kids
future aspirations in the nfl ??? It is such abuses at all levels
that I'm talking about. Is it possible that a guy that screws up in
the NFL does so because he did not have a good coach like you ??? Is
it posslble that they continue to act out because they seel little or
no consequences to those that do ???


>I've been in the position of taking a
> bunch of them on a road trip and being aware I needed to prep a few kids on
> how to act in the resteraunt we would use, or how to act at the hotel we
> stayed at....they just hadn't had those experiences in their own lives.
> That was not their fault.  A lot of these guys were identified early on as
> potential stars, when they were in Pop Warner even.  They had junior high
> coaches who used them to pave their own career paths to a better job, they
> had way too many people covering up some of their mistakes...all kinds of
> things, and a lot of them just didn't have the life experiences to equip
> them to go out into the world with several millions of dollars at their
> disposal.  And....some are just not very nice people...but you know what,
> several of the guys I coached with wern't either.  And when I left coaching,
> I had a CFO at the hospital system I worked for who should have a special
> place in Hell....but, that's life.  I learned a long time ago I don't have
> to like somebody to work with them, and I don't have to act like them
> either.  

I think that is a lesson that we all learn.

>Apparently, Rex sees something in these guys.  Bill Parcells did
> too.  Maybe Rex can do what Tuna did.  Keshawn seems to be a  gentleman
> these days.  That was not the story when he was first a Jet.  And how about
> Brian Cox?  I would have had a real hard time putting up with him before BP
> got into his head.  Let's see what Rex does with these guys.

Yes... Lets see... I hope for the best... I still see that this can be
seen as setting a bad example...

== 16 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 6:07 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 8:53 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:82542dde-a29c-4477-96cd-512c2076aaf0@22g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 7:33 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:202a1d03-a494-4328-9b78-77ff5c053db3@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> > > > violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
> > > > too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > > > football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
> > > > that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > > > football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
> > > > those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> > > > regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > > > maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
> > > > year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
> > > > put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > > > academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if any
> > > > real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> > > > brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> > > > football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
> > > > "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> > > > pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> > > > or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> > > > system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> > > > behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> > > > or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> > > > or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> > > > Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> > > > further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
> > > > but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players. The
> > > > problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic programs.
> > > > The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> > > > them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > > > actually done in practice all too often in these football factories is
> > > > the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
> > > > matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior as
> > > > a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>
> > > OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > > Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
> > > player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
> > > High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
> > best ball players ???
>
> > Whoever said they make the "best" ball players. I never did. What I said
> > was that guys who play football tend to be less offended by violent
> > behavior
> > and even those with brains and grades have sometimes had a reputation for
> > some rowdy behavior. I went to a school where you had to have some decent
> > stats to hang in with the rest of the student body, academics I mean, and
> > there were a lot of very bright guys with majors in business or science of
> > whatever who raised a lot of hell and got into a lot of trouble, and we
> > had
> > a football coach who tolerated very little back in the day. I think you
> > have read way to0 much into this and made some gross generalizations.
> > BTW...I've coached against both of the fine schools you referenced...and
> > coached at a school who competes with them in championship games. My
> > former
> > employer has some great kids, lots of them, and academic standards just as
> > stringent as either BC or DB.....AND....there are some football players
> > (historically) that do some things we would rather they didn't do....I was
> > one of the coaches who had to deal with it. Boys will be boys. Read the
> > articles about Carl Nicks of the Saints and how he has matured and
> > changed.
> > The kids who get to go to DB and BC aren't exactly from a massive pool of
> > disadvantaged guys either. I can tell you this...when someone is "hungry"
> > and sees very little opportunity excepting some particular behavior, be it
> > football, boxing or crime....they will work very hard at that limited
> > opportunity.
> > Where did you read that social defectives make the best
> > football players.
>
> If you excuse or make little of a ball player that acts out especially
> at the pro level because football is a "violent" game you are making a
> horse shit assosiation.  I dont need years of coaching experiece to
> know that.
>
> >The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
> > talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
> > present themselves in ways other kids can.- Hide quoted text -
>
>  And showing tollerance at the pro level to violence is a good way to
> teach them how to act ???
>
> Did he get arrested?  Did he get fined?  Does he pay a price for his
> behavior according to the standards the league sets up?  That is what we go
> by.  I don't tolerate or condone the behavior.  But I'll be damned if I'm
> going to pass the final judgement on someone.  Let's take the principal you
> suggest to all jobs then.  Screw up, act out, commit a violent act...and you
> are on the streets, jobless and homeless.....I think we'd have a lot of
> politicians involved in that gang then.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Do they pay the price according to the standards that the rest of us
do ??? In general, no. They have money and legal resources assigned
to them that all but ensures all but the most vile get away with
serious crime. Wanna bet there have been a bunch of assault and rape
victims that were paid off to shut up ??? Have any idea what goes on
at some div1 colleges ??? Can you for one second tell me that there
are no div1 football programs dont do things to promote kids gettig
the idea that they are immune to consequences ??? And if you commit a
single violent act in the workplace or on campus it is my opinion
that you should be out.


== 17 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 6:56 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:b16b1f8d-45f8-45da-8b7c-9f7b8d086f5c@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 8:50 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:


<SNIP>

> Papa... Agree 100 % that the understanding and tollerance level should
> be at a very fair level for younger people. No argument from me.
>
> Good....because a lot of these guys coming into the NFL are effectively
> "very young" and socially immature.

Of course... And would you not agree that in both high school and
college there are plenty of coaches that are not very good
teachers ??? Some that might even revel a bit in a kid that shows
signs of trouble ??? Perhaps looking at troubled or violent kid as
nothing more than a cash cow ??? Are there not high school and college
coaches that know all about roids and who's takin' 'em ??? Turn a
blind eye cause it is good for your record and good for the kids
future aspirations in the nfl ??? It is such abuses at all levels
that I'm talking about. Is it possible that a guy that screws up in
the NFL does so because he did not have a good coach like you ??? Is
it posslble that they continue to act out because they seel little or
no consequences to those that do ???


>I've been in the position of taking a
> bunch of them on a road trip and being aware I needed to prep a few kids
> on
> how to act in the resteraunt we would use, or how to act at the hotel we
> stayed at....they just hadn't had those experiences in their own lives.
> That was not their fault. A lot of these guys were identified early on as
> potential stars, when they were in Pop Warner even. They had junior high
> coaches who used them to pave their own career paths to a better job, they
> had way too many people covering up some of their mistakes...all kinds of
> things, and a lot of them just didn't have the life experiences to equip
> them to go out into the world with several millions of dollars at their
> disposal. And....some are just not very nice people...but you know what,
> several of the guys I coached with wern't either. And when I left
> coaching,
> I had a CFO at the hospital system I worked for who should have a special
> place in Hell....but, that's life. I learned a long time ago I don't have
> to like somebody to work with them, and I don't have to act like them
> either.

I think that is a lesson that we all learn.

>Apparently, Rex sees something in these guys. Bill Parcells did
> too. Maybe Rex can do what Tuna did. Keshawn seems to be a gentleman
> these days. That was not the story when he was first a Jet. And how about
> Brian Cox? I would have had a real hard time putting up with him before BP
> got into his head. Let's see what Rex does with these guys.

Yes... Lets see... I hope for the best... I still see that this can be
seen as setting a bad example...


"Good Examples" are gone. They left town quite a while ago. When the very
powers that control our financial lives can run a huge scam, and elected
officials are flat out bought and sold, corporations pay little or no taxes
and Wall Street can sell crap that doesn't even really exist....the train
has left the station. Why should some guys getting the crap kicked out of
them, taking incredible physical abuse be the last bastion of a "Good
Example" ? It's sad, but it is what it is. Tebow is a supposed good
example...but frankly, I think his pious attitude goes too far the other
direction. Whatever happened to quiet confidence where you just did your
job and shut up, lived your life and let others live theirs? Eveybody has a
freakin opinion now. I try and run a 501c3, and have some great folks who
volunteer tons of time and talent to make it happen. We give away every
nickle we raise....but damn, you should hear all the crap we get hurled at
us. I've had some clown try and find out if I draw a salary (I told him to
look at my 1997 Subaru), and we have all kinds of people assume we do this
for personal gain. The fact is they know nothing about what we do, the
cause we work for...but that doesn't stop them. Everybody that can tweet,
or Facebook or Myspace or whatever is an expert today. So, just like people
don't know what the expenses of a family whose child went through a
transplant and what insurance does and doesn't pay....I don't know all the
facts about what some guy did or didn't do. They pay cops and judges to
solve that and if the League thinks somebody went too far, they can do their
thing. When I am honest and take a good look at it....half the guys I
played ball with were not people I'd want to hang with today and I only have
a few close friends left over from my coaching days too. I knew a couple of
them that wern't such "Good Examples" too. :-) Perhaps I wasn't on an
occasion or two.


== 18 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 6:58 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:f9c43f67-79f2-4589-b6e9-1293adf0a097@u22g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 8:28 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:91a25108-ac58-4fff-9708-64fe9e647f24@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 2:19 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Michael wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 1:57 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> > >> Michael wrote:
> > >>> On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>> On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >>>>> On Apr 15, 11:49 am, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> > >>>>>> Michael wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com>
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> People don't make good football players because they are
> > >>>>>>>>> troubled,
> > >>>>>>>>> violent or have personality defects. Far from it.
> > >>>>>>>>> Unfortunately,
> > >>>>>>>>> all
> > >>>>>>>>> too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > >>>>>>>>> football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area
> > >>>>>>>>> in
> > >>>>>>>>> NJ
> > >>>>>>>>> that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as
> > >>>>>>>>> college
> > >>>>>>>>> football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both
> > >>>>>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>>>> those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as
> > >>>>>>>>> highly
> > >>>>>>>>> regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write
> > >>>>>>>>> or
> > >>>>>>>>> maintain a high academic standard don't get into these
> > >>>>>>>>> schools.
> > >>>>>>>>> Last
> > >>>>>>>>> year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from
> > >>>>>>>>> BC.
> > >>>>>>>>> They
> > >>>>>>>>> put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > >>>>>>>>> academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few
> > >>>>>>>>> if any
> > >>>>>>>>> real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them
> > >>>>>>>>> have
> > >>>>>>>>> brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of
> > >>>>>>>>> good
> > >>>>>>>>> football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some
> > >>>>>>>>> other
> > >>>>>>>>> "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas,
> > >>>>>>>>> ohio,
> > >>>>>>>>> pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do
> > >>>>>>>>> little
> > >>>>>>>>> or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and
> > >>>>>>>>> then,
> > >>>>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>>>> system makes the bull shit parallels between football and
> > >>>>>>>>> defective
> > >>>>>>>>> behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent,
> > >>>>>>>>> troubled
> > >>>>>>>>> or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a
> > >>>>>>>>> fuck-up
> > >>>>>>>>> or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football
> > >>>>>>>>> player.
> > >>>>>>>>> Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an
> > >>>>>>>>> encouraging
> > >>>>>>>>> further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of
> > >>>>>>>>> problems
> > >>>>>>>>> but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football
> > >>>>>>>>> players. The
> > >>>>>>>>> problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> > >>>>>>>>> programs.
> > >>>>>>>>> The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or
> > >>>>>>>>> giving
> > >>>>>>>>> them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > >>>>>>>>> actually done in practice all too often in these football
> > >>>>>>>>> factories is
> > >>>>>>>>> the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so,
> > >>>>>>>>> as
> > >>>>>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>>>> matter of course, people see violent and defective social
> > >>>>>>>>> behavior as
> > >>>>>>>>> a bfoq of a pro ball player.
> > >>>>>>>> OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > >>>>>>>> Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became
> > >>>>>>>> an
> > >>>>>>>> NFL
> > >>>>>>>> player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next?
> > >>>>>>>> Lawrence
> > >>>>>>>> High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
> > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
> > >>>>>>> Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
> > >>>>>>> Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well
> > >>>>>>> make
> > >>>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> best ball players ???
> > >>>>>> Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?- Hide
> > >>>>>> quoted text -
> > >>>>>> - Show quoted text -
> > >>>>> Interesting...
> > >>>>> I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
> > >>>>> right.
> > >>>>> Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > >>>>> disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into
> > >>>>> great
> > >>>>> wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > >>>>> thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
> > >>>>> If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those
> > >>>>> countless
> > >>>>> thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when
> > >>>>> pro
> > >>>>> ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims
> > >>>>> some
> > >>>>> pain and suffering.
> > >>>> What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place.
> > >>>> I
> > >>>> thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> > >>>> some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to
> > >>>> save
> > >>>> human kind.- Hide quoted text -
> > >>>> - Show quoted text -
> > >>> If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of
> > >>> potential
> > >>> violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
> > >>> violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
> > >>> players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
> > >>> players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
> > >>> perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
> > >>> Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the
> > >>> field.
> > >>> That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
> > >>> be an animal to play ball.
> > >>> Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat
> > >>> or
> > >>> in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are
> > >>> trained
> > >>> to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
> > >>> bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
> > >>> armed criminals.
> > >>> Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
> > >>> or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever
> > >>> they
> > >>> felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
> > >>> shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
> > >>> about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
> > >> You're all over the map here, Michael. But at least you're not trying
> > >> to rewrite the definition of violent anymore.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Please don't fault me if cognitive thinking is not one of your
> > > specialties.
>
> > Don't lash out at me just because your panties are all in a twist.- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Jeez... Of all people... A Patriots fan not agreeing on the value of
> team character issues. I know that the Pats took in a few problem
> cases BECAUSE THEY COULD, but dont you think that building on
> character trumps a team that builds on talent considerations to the
> exclusion of character ??? I mean, really...Look at what I am saying
> about the value of setting examples... If the Pats did not have
> character and real good leaders, how would they have done with
> Moss ??? What if Moss went to the Cowboys and not the Patriots ???
> See what I mean ???
>
> Character issues stopped being important in this culture a long time
> ago.....Jimmy Swaggart, Slick Willie Clinton and Georgie Boy
> Bush....character???????? Do you think Jerry Jones has "character" ? Is
> Donald Trump a principaled person with a high degree of integrity and
> character? Do most of the TV talk show clowns show character? or do they
> say whatever gets ratings?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

yes... and two wrongs dont make a right... neither do twenty wrongs...

Agreed...but the only person I can do anything about is me....and that's
what I need to worry about. If I don't like somebody enough, I just won't
go see them play. I do that with a couple musicians I know.


== 19 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 7:04 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:dcfea99e-8520-45ca-9264-9d0f3f9b60fe@b23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 15, 8:53 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:82542dde-a29c-4477-96cd-512c2076aaf0@22g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 7:33 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:202a1d03-a494-4328-9b78-77ff5c053db3@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> > > > violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
> > > > too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > > > football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
> > > > that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > > > football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
> > > > those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> > > > regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > > > maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
> > > > year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
> > > > put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > > > academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if
> > > > any
> > > > real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> > > > brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> > > > football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
> > > > "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> > > > pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> > > > or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> > > > system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> > > > behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> > > > or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> > > > or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> > > > Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> > > > further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
> > > > but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players.
> > > > The
> > > > problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> > > > programs.
> > > > The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> > > > them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > > > actually done in practice all too often in these football factories
> > > > is
> > > > the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
> > > > matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior
> > > > as
> > > > a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>
> > > OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > > Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
> > > player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
> > > High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
> > best ball players ???
>
> > Whoever said they make the "best" ball players. I never did. What I said
> > was that guys who play football tend to be less offended by violent
> > behavior
> > and even those with brains and grades have sometimes had a reputation
> > for
> > some rowdy behavior. I went to a school where you had to have some
> > decent
> > stats to hang in with the rest of the student body, academics I mean,
> > and
> > there were a lot of very bright guys with majors in business or science
> > of
> > whatever who raised a lot of hell and got into a lot of trouble, and we
> > had
> > a football coach who tolerated very little back in the day. I think you
> > have read way to0 much into this and made some gross generalizations.
> > BTW...I've coached against both of the fine schools you referenced...and
> > coached at a school who competes with them in championship games. My
> > former
> > employer has some great kids, lots of them, and academic standards just
> > as
> > stringent as either BC or DB.....AND....there are some football players
> > (historically) that do some things we would rather they didn't do....I
> > was
> > one of the coaches who had to deal with it. Boys will be boys. Read the
> > articles about Carl Nicks of the Saints and how he has matured and
> > changed.
> > The kids who get to go to DB and BC aren't exactly from a massive pool
> > of
> > disadvantaged guys either. I can tell you this...when someone is
> > "hungry"
> > and sees very little opportunity excepting some particular behavior, be
> > it
> > football, boxing or crime....they will work very hard at that limited
> > opportunity.
> > Where did you read that social defectives make the best
> > football players.
>
> If you excuse or make little of a ball player that acts out especially
> at the pro level because football is a "violent" game you are making a
> horse shit assosiation. I dont need years of coaching experiece to
> know that.
>
> >The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
> > talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
> > present themselves in ways other kids can.- Hide quoted text -
>
> And showing tollerance at the pro level to violence is a good way to
> teach them how to act ???
>
> Did he get arrested? Did he get fined? Does he pay a price for his
> behavior according to the standards the league sets up? That is what we go
> by. I don't tolerate or condone the behavior. But I'll be damned if I'm
> going to pass the final judgement on someone. Let's take the principal you
> suggest to all jobs then. Screw up, act out, commit a violent act...and
> you
> are on the streets, jobless and homeless.....I think we'd have a lot of
> politicians involved in that gang then.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Do they pay the price according to the standards that the rest of us
do ??? In general, no. They have money and legal resources assigned
to them that all but ensures all but the most vile get away with
serious crime. Wanna bet there have been a bunch of assault and rape
victims that were paid off to shut up ??? Have any idea what goes on
at some div1 colleges ??? Can you for one second tell me that there
are no div1 football programs dont do things to promote kids gettig
the idea that they are immune to consequences ??? And if you commit a
single violent act in the workplace or on campus it is my opinion
that you should be out.

Does John Ensign get treated the same way you or I do? Does any big time
celebrity? No...that's a function of what we have created in our culture,
if we want to blame someone we need to look first in the mirror
collectively. Assault and rape victims paid to shut up????? Do you mean
like the Gov of NY ? As for violence in D I schools? Do you think steroids
might just play a little bit of a role in any of this?


== 20 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 7:09 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 9:56 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:b16b1f8d-45f8-45da-8b7c-9f7b8d086f5c@30g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 8:50 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > Papa... Agree 100 % that the understanding and tollerance level should
> > be at a very fair level for younger people. No argument from me.
>
> > Good....because a lot of these guys coming into the NFL are effectively
> > "very young" and socially immature.
>
> Of course... And would you not agree that in both high school and
> college there are plenty of coaches that are not very good
> teachers ??? Some that might even revel a bit in a kid that shows
> signs of trouble ??? Perhaps looking at troubled or violent kid as
> nothing more than a cash cow ??? Are there not high school and college
> coaches that know all about roids and who's takin' 'em ??? Turn a
> blind eye cause it is good for your record and good for the kids
> future aspirations in the nfl ???  It is such abuses at all levels
> that I'm talking about.  Is it possible that a guy that screws up in
> the NFL does so because he did not have a good coach like you ??? Is
> it posslble that they continue to act out because they seel little or
> no consequences to those that do ???
>
>
>
>
>
> >I've been in the position of taking a
> > bunch of them on a road trip and being aware I needed to prep a few kids
> > on
> > how to act in the resteraunt we would use, or how to act at the hotel we
> > stayed at....they just hadn't had those experiences in their own lives.
> > That was not their fault. A lot of these guys were identified early on as
> > potential stars, when they were in Pop Warner even. They had junior high
> > coaches who used them to pave their own career paths to a better job, they
> > had way too many people covering up some of their mistakes...all kinds of
> > things, and a lot of them just didn't have the life experiences to equip
> > them to go out into the world with several millions of dollars at their
> > disposal. And....some are just not very nice people...but you know what,
> > several of the guys I coached with wern't either. And when I left
> > coaching,
> > I had a CFO at the hospital system I worked for who should have a special
> > place in Hell....but, that's life. I learned a long time ago I don't have
> > to like somebody to work with them, and I don't have to act like them
> > either.
>
> I think that is a lesson that we all learn.
>
> >Apparently, Rex sees something in these guys. Bill Parcells did
> > too. Maybe Rex can do what Tuna did. Keshawn seems to be a gentleman
> > these days. That was not the story when he was first a Jet. And how about
> > Brian Cox? I would have had a real hard time putting up with him before BP
> > got into his head. Let's see what Rex does with these guys.
>
> Yes... Lets see... I hope for the best... I still see that this can be
> seen as setting a bad example...
>
> "Good Examples" are gone.  They left town quite a while ago.  When the very
> powers that control our financial lives can run a huge scam, and elected
> officials are flat out bought and sold, corporations pay little or no taxes
> and Wall Street can sell crap that doesn't even really exist....the train
> has left the station.  Why should some guys getting the crap kicked out of
> them, taking incredible physical abuse be the last bastion of a "Good
> Example" ?  It's sad, but it is what it is.  Tebow is a supposed good
> example...but frankly, I think his pious attitude goes too far the other
> direction.  Whatever happened to quiet confidence where you just did your
> job and shut up, lived your life and let others live theirs?  Eveybody has a
> freakin opinion now.  I try and run a 501c3, and have some great folks who
> volunteer tons of time and talent to make it happen.  We give away every
> nickle we raise....but damn, you should hear all the crap we get hurled at
> us.  I've had some clown try and find out if I draw a salary (I told him to
> look at my 1997 Subaru), and we have all kinds of people assume we do this
> for personal gain.  The fact is they know nothing about what we do, the
> cause we work for...but that doesn't stop them.  Everybody that can tweet,
> or Facebook or Myspace or whatever is an expert today.  So, just like people
> don't know what the expenses of a family whose child went through a
> transplant and what insurance does and doesn't pay....I don't know all the
> facts about what some guy did or didn't do.  They pay cops and judges to
> solve that and if the League thinks somebody went too far, they can do their
> thing.  When I am honest and take a good look at it....half the guys I
> played ball with were not people I'd want to hang with today and I only have
> a few close friends left over from my coaching days too. I knew a couple of
> them that wern't such "Good Examples" too. :-)  Perhaps I wasn't on an
> occasion or two.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Jeeez... so what should we all do, just throw in the towel ??? dont
offer any protest ??? I see good examples every day... If I see bad
ones, I do what is in my power to correct them. I think you do too.
You've been known here to protest agaisnt social injustice and offer
possible solutions.


== 21 of 21 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 7:19 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 15, 10:04 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:dcfea99e-8520-45ca-9264-9d0f3f9b60fe@b23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 15, 8:53 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:82542dde-a29c-4477-96cd-512c2076aaf0@22g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 15, 7:33 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:202a1d03-a494-4328-9b78-77ff5c053db3@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 15, 11:18 am, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 15, 10:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > People don't make good football players because they are troubled,
> > > > > violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
> > > > > too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
> > > > > football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
> > > > > that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
> > > > > football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
> > > > > those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
> > > > > regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
> > > > > maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
> > > > > year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
> > > > > put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
> > > > > academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if
> > > > > any
> > > > > real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
> > > > > brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
> > > > > football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
> > > > > "football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
> > > > > pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
> > > > > or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
> > > > > system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
> > > > > behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
> > > > > or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
> > > > > or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
> > > > > Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
> > > > > further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
> > > > > but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players.
> > > > > The
> > > > > problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic
> > > > > programs.
> > > > > The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
> > > > > them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
> > > > > actually done in practice all too often in these football factories
> > > > > is
> > > > > the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
> > > > > matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior
> > > > > as
> > > > > a bfoq of a pro ball player.
>
> > > > OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
> > > > Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
> > > > player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
> > > > High school with Lyle Alzado?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
>
> > > Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
> > > best ball players ???
>
> > > Whoever said they make the "best" ball players. I never did. What I said
> > > was that guys who play football tend to be less offended by violent
> > > behavior
> > > and even those with brains and grades have sometimes had a reputation
> > > for
> > > some rowdy behavior. I went to a school where you had to have some
> > > decent
> > > stats to hang in with the rest of the student body, academics I mean,
> > > and
> > > there were a lot of very bright guys with majors in business or science
> > > of
> > > whatever who raised a lot of hell and got into a lot of trouble, and we
> > > had
> > > a football coach who tolerated very little back in the day. I think you
> > > have read way to0 much into this and made some gross generalizations.
> > > BTW...I've coached against both of the fine schools you referenced...and
> > > coached at a school who competes with them in championship games. My
> > > former
> > > employer has some great kids, lots of them, and academic standards just
> > > as
> > > stringent as either BC or DB.....AND....there are some football players
> > > (historically) that do some things we would rather they didn't do....I
> > > was
> > > one of the coaches who had to deal with it. Boys will be boys. Read the
> > > articles about Carl Nicks of the Saints and how he has matured and
> > > changed.
> > > The kids who get to go to DB and BC aren't exactly from a massive pool
> > > of
> > > disadvantaged guys either. I can tell you this...when someone is
> > > "hungry"
> > > and sees very little opportunity excepting some particular behavior, be
> > > it
> > > football, boxing or crime....they will work very hard at that limited
> > > opportunity.
> > > Where did you read that social defectives make the best
> > > football players.
>
> > If you excuse or make little of a ball player that acts out especially
> > at the pro level because football is a "violent" game you are making a
> > horse shit assosiation. I dont need years of coaching experiece to
> > know that.
>
> > >The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
> > > talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
> > > present themselves in ways other kids can.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > And showing tollerance at the pro level to violence is a good way to
> > teach them how to act ???
>
> > Did he get arrested? Did he get fined? Does he pay a price for his
> > behavior according to the standards the league sets up? That is what we go
> > by. I don't tolerate or condone the behavior. But I'll be damned if I'm
> > going to pass the final judgement on someone. Let's take the principal you
> > suggest to all jobs then. Screw up, act out, commit a violent act...and
> > you
> > are on the streets, jobless and homeless.....I think we'd have a lot of
> > politicians involved in that gang then.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Do they pay the price according to the standards that the rest of us
> do ??? In general, no.  They have money and legal resources assigned
> to them that all but ensures all but the most vile get away with
> serious crime.  Wanna bet there have been a bunch of assault and rape
> victims that were paid off to shut up ???  Have any idea what goes on
> at some div1 colleges ???  Can you for one second tell me that there
> are no div1 football programs dont do things to promote kids gettig
> the idea that they are immune to consequences ??? And if you commit a
> single violent act in the workplace or on campus  it is my opinion
> that you should be out.
>
> Does John Ensign get treated the same way you or I do?  Does any big time
> celebrity?  No...that's a function of what we have created in our culture,
> if we want to blame someone we need to look first in the mirror
> collectively.  

Yes... And that is part of the reason I am running my trap here. I
pay for tickets and go to games, so I'm part of it too. I also want
things to change for the better. You dont have to ignore or accept
defective behavior to have a college program or a pro league.

Assault and rape victims paid to shut up?????  Do you mean
> like the Gov of NY ?  As for violence in D I schools?  Do you think steroids
> might just play a little bit of a role in any of this?-

Yes ! And the people turning their backs and condoning it also have a
part in it when guys leave college for the pros having learned all the
wrong lessons. Even bigger problem with the ones who dont get to the
pros after rolling the dice. That is what I have been pissing and
moaning about. It is true people need a fair chance to learn and grow
up. That does not mean by any reason that you cant draw the line or
point out flaws in the sytem and flaws in individuals.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Leon reported to have signed
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b889a5f3da0f3355?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 4:25 pm
From: Harlan Lachman


In article
<73ad81f1-8638-4806-9335-cf1db30479af@c21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Michael <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote:

> 1050 reports Leon has signed with the jets

Two bad for Leon, it is about a year too late.

h


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:13 pm
From: Tutor


On Apr 15, 7:25 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
> In article
> <73ad81f1-8638-4806-9335-cf1db3047...@c21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > 1050 reports Leon has signed with the jets
>
> Two bad for Leon, it is about a year too late.
>
> h

I am not familiar with the rules. Now that Leon has signed the
tender, he can be traded, right? Id rather keep Leon than get a 4th
or even a 3rd round pick. His potential value exceeds anything they
might draft in rounds 3 and later.


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 5:39 pm
From: Hammer


On Apr 15, 8:13 pm, Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 7:25 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <73ad81f1-8638-4806-9335-cf1db3047...@c21g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > 1050 reports Leon has signed with the jets
>
> > Two bad for Leon, it is about a year too late.
>
> > h
>
> I am not familiar with the rules.  Now that Leon has signed the
> tender, he can be traded, right?  Id rather keep Leon than get a 4th
> or even a 3rd round pick.  His potential value exceeds anything they
> might draft in rounds 3 and later.

I have to say, I like the way the Jets handled this situation so far.
In the past when a player got whiny they rewarded bad behavior. None
of that here.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: this for a late 5th rounder
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b0378ac533dd8e8d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 15 2010 4:53 pm
From: Tutor


On Apr 14, 12:02 pm, Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2010 06:41:38 -0700 (PDT), Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AlD.LPrjCujhMLdKweDPRQtDubYF?sl...
>
> >"As good friend, Steelers fan and statistical analyst Dutch Wydo
> >pointed out shortly after Holmes was dealt Sunday, Holmes was one of
> >the best receivers in the league at truly moving the chains.
>
> >Last year, Holmes accounted for 63 first downs out of his 79
> >receptions. That 79.7 percent mark of creating a first down was the
> >second highest among the NFL's top 50 pass catchers (the San Diego
> >Chargers' Vincent Jackson(notes) was first at a stunning 85.3 percent
> >of his 68 catches).
>
> >Even if you take away Holmes' five touchdowns (touchdowns count as
> >first downs), he was a master of creating a fresh set of downs. To
> >break that down further, there were only seven of the top 50 in the
> >league who topped the 75 percent mark. By comparison, the NFL's
> >leading receiver, Wes Welker(notes), created 71 first downs. But
> >Welker did that on 123 receptions, meaning that only 57.7 percent of
> >his catches went for first downs"
>
> >What Holmes provided was a quick receiver who never quit on plays even
> >as they broke down. His willingness to work to get open all the way to
> >the last moment can't be overstated. When combined with
> >Roethlisberger's pump-faking, extend-the-play-to-the-last-second
> >style, Holmes' ability was maximized.
>
> This we get for 12 games for a late fifth rounder. There's one year
> left on his contract and he's suspended for the first four games of
> it.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

If Holmes produces and keeps his nose clean, he may get a contract
from the Jets. Same for Edwards. But probably not both. I would
like them to extend Cotchery. Not sure when JCo's contract expires.


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gsk

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