Tuesday, June 1, 2010

Re: Medarticles Plz help me with original articles

Buzz It
Please help me with full articles for following

1. 

Different Treatment Outcomes With Different Formulations of Clobetasol Propionate 0.05% for the Treatment of Plaque Psoriasis

Mraz S, Leonardi C, Colón LE, Johnson LA
J Dermatolog Treat. 2008;19:354-359

2. 

New Developments in Topical Psoriasis Therapy: The Hydrogel Patch

Colaco SM, Fitzmaurice S, Becker E, et al
In: Koo JYM, Lee CS, Lebwohl MG, eds. Mild-to-Moderate Psoriasis. 2nd ed. New York: Informa Healthcare; 2009:165-182.


On Tue, Jun 1, 2010 at 10:33 AM, ar ma <dr.darunk@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Medarticles

PlZ help me with original articles for the following

1. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18573158

J Eur Acad Dermatol Venereol. 2008 Sep;22(9):1033-43. Epub 2008 Jun 19.

Metastatic Crohn's disease: a review.

Palamaras I, El-Jabbour J, Pietropaolo N, Thomson P, Mann S, Robles W, Stevens HP.

Barnet & Chase Farm NHS Trust, Dermatology, London, UK. drioulios@hotmail.com

 

2. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19594764

Clin Exp Dermatol. 2010 Apr;35(3):251-6. Epub 2009 Jul 6.

A comparison of metronidazole 1% cream and pimecrolimus 1% cream in the treatment of patients with papulopustular rosacea: a randomized open-label clinical trial.

Koca R, Altinyazar HC, Ankarali H, Muhtar S, Tekin NS, Cinar S.

Department of Dermatology, Faculty of Medicine, Zonguldak Karaelmas University, Zonguldak, Turkey. rafkoca@yahoo.com

3. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20107297

Postgrad Med. 2010 Jan;122(1):139-43.

A review of the diagnosis and treatment of rosacea.

Scheinfeld N, Berk T.

New York University Medical Center, New York, NY, USA. scheinfeld@earthlink.net

 

4. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18537995

Contact Dermatitis. 2008 Jul;59(1):23-30. Epub 2008 Jun 1.

The effect of irritant dermatitis on cutaneous bioavailability of a metronidazole formulation, investigated by microdialysis and dermatopharmacokinetic method.

Ortiz PG, Hansen SH, Shah VP, Menné T, Benfeldt E.

Department of Dermatology, Gentofte Hospital, 2900 Hellerup, Denmark. patriciagarcia@dadlnet.dk

 

5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17725855

J Pharm Pharmacol. 2007 Aug;59(8):1125-30.

Scavenging properties of metronidazole on free oxygen radicals in a skin lipid model system.

Narayanan S, Hünerbein A, Getie M, Jäckel A, Neubert RH.

Medical Department, Galderma Laboratorium GmbH, Georg-Glock-Str. 8, 40474 Düsseldorf, Germany.


 

 

 

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:2751 Mission Gurgaon Development is now registered as a civil society organization

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Dear citizens of Gurgaon:

You will be happy to learn that Mission Gurgaon Development – A people's movement for good governance in Gurgaon – has now been registered under the Societies Registration Act 1860 effective May 25, 2010.

 

Since its founding in August 2009, Mission Gurgaon Development has taken three major initiatives:

1.      Drawing the state's attention to empowering the citizens of Gurgaon with an effective local government (Municipal Corporation) as per the 74th constitutional amendment.

2.      Demanding a special development authority for areas outside the municipal limits of Gurgaon (new areas under development) based in Gurgaon and with full adminstrative and financial powers vested in that authority here (only for development purpose till we get a fully empowered MCG).

3.      Drawing the state's attention to 100% voter registration in Gurgaon, and citizen-friendly voter registration process.

 

During this period, the movement was supported by a number of individuals and welfare groups working in Gurgaon. Two citizens groups deserve special mention and thanks:

1.      Gurgaon Citizen Council (GCC), headed by Mr RS Rathee

2.      Federation of Resident Welfare Association (FORWA) headed by Mr Dharam Sagar

 

Their unconditional support, and the support of a large number of residents in Gurgaon, helped Mission Gurgaon Development achieve an additional 140,000 voters to be registered and get voting rights for the elections in 2009, thus increasing the number of voters from 300,000 to 460,000.

 

Mission Gurgaon Development likewise supported the candidature of RS Rathee from the Gurgaon Constituency during the last assembly elections 2009 with an aim to enable citizen representation in the parliament of the state.

 

Regarding effective local governance, efforts are on to have a municipal corporation that is fully empowered as per the 74th Constitutional Amendment, with enough opportunities for residents of Gurgaon to participate in the development process. We have strongly taken this up with the state government and the central government to grant the citizens of Gurgaon their Constitutional right. This remains the topmost agenda for Mission Gurgaon Development.

 
We strongly believe that with improved governance, the problems related to many infrastructure issues will naturally get resolved.
  

The registration of Mission Gurgaon Development makes us an organized entity as a civil society group and thus lends a positive identity to our movement. The registration arms us with the rights and duties to take forward our mission (Gurgaon's development) with greater zeal and commitment.

 

The Governing Council and Chartered Members of the registered Mission Gurgaon Development constitute the following individuals, who bring with them vast knowledge, sharp intellect, and rich experience on governance and development:

 
  1. Mr Devinder Chopra (froemrly with the UN) (retd), Member Patron
  2. Mr Vinay Shankar, IAS (retd), Member Patron  
  3. Maj Gen Satbir Singh, SM (retd), SM, President
  4. Dr Neelima Bhargava, (Educationist), Vice President
  5. Dr Bhawani Shankar Tripathy, (Development professional), General Secretary
  6. Col S.S. Oberoi (retd), Treasurer
  7. Ms Vakul Cowshik, Social Worker, Member

Note:

Any other individual in Gurgaon claiming to be a governing body member of Mission Gurgaon Development is doing so illegally and should not be entertained.

 

To enable all citizens of Gurgaon to understand the aims and objects of Mission Gurgaon Development, to promote transparency and open communication between the citizens and members of Mission Gurgaon Development, we are sharing with you our Memorandum of Association approved by the Registrar of Societies. Please find attached a copy for your perusal.

 

We seek your support; we seek everybody's support in Gurgaon, in this movement for effective local governance. We request you to forward this mail and the attachment to all your friends and well-wishers in Gurgaon.

 

Mission Gurgaon Development is committed to support all other individuals/groups/associations working for the welfare of the citizens of Gurgaon in their specific areas of work:

1.      Mission Gurgaon Development supports the current efforts of JAFRA on taking up the issue of property tax with the state government.

2.      Mission Gurgaon Development supports the efforts of Senior Citizens Forums in Gurgaon in their efforts at making Gurgaon an old age-friendly city.

3.      Mission Gurgaon Development fully supports the efforts of SURGE in its initiative for promoting and developing water harvesting structures across Gurgaon.

4.      Mission Gurgaon Development supports the efforts of Prayatna in its initiative for promoting education for the underprivileged.

5.      Mission Gurgaon development supports Literacy India for promoting education and skills development of underprivileged girls and empowering them to create their place in society.

 

We invite you all to join hands for a better Gurgaon.

 

We thank you all in advance for your support to this movement, and wish you the very best in life.

 

Should you have any questions, please do not hesitate to call me or either of the governing members below. We eagerly look forward to your interest in Mission Gurgaon Development.

 
  1. Maj Gen Satbir Singh, SM (retd), SM, President: 9312404269 
  2. Col S.S. Oberoi (retd), Treasurer: 9818768349 
 
Warmest Rgds
Bhawani Shankar Tripathy
For Mission Gurgaon Development
A  People's Movement for Good Governance
543, Sector 23, Gurgaon 122017Haryana
Tel: 9312404269, 9818768349, 9871628217
 
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." (Margaret Mead)
 

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Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi
 
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[socialactionfoundationforequity:2749 What is India's real HIV story?

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What is India's real HIV story?
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/jun/020610-HIV-Victims-NGO-Pune.htm

By: Alifiya Khan Date: 2010-06-02 Place: Pune

While official estimate says 23 lakh HIV+ people, study by
international experts says 17 lakh

Is it possible for six lakh HIV positive people to disappear
overnight? That is exactly what has happened, if you compare National
Aids Control Organisation's (NACO) officially released estimate of
people living with HIV in India with a new study by international
experts.


JAAGO RE: Members of an NGO Wake Up Pune performing a street play on
HIV awareness. File pic

And two of the authors of the new study, which has been published in
the British Medical Journal (BMJ), are senior NACO officials.

The last available data with NACO shows there were an estimated 23
lakh people between 15 and 49 years of age living with HIV in 2006.

Now the new study says that figure was much lower, and puts the number
of HIV positive people at 17 lakh.
Published in the February issue of BMJ, the study was conducted using
mathematical models on data involving 11 lakh Indian homes. According
to it, the actual figure of HIV positive people is at least 40 per
cent lower than the 2006 official estimate.

Instead of taking the number of HIV positive people and calculating
the number of deaths, as is the method accepted by the World Health
Organisation, authors of the study have backdated the data by studying
HIV/AIDS deaths in India to arrive at what they claim is the correct
figure of people living with HIV.

Experts working in the field of HIV say it is possible the new study
gives a more realistic picture than the NACO estimate.

"NACO's HIV estimation is based on various mathematical models,
besides actual surveying of a sample of the population through an
annual exercise known as sentinel surveillance," said a senior
official from the National Aids Research Institute on condition of
anonymity. "In 2006, NACO had halved its estimate of people living
with HIV in India from 5 million (50 lakh) to 2.3 million (23 lakh).
This was after there was a huge difference in its estimates and the
National Family Health Survey data. But after that it is yet to
validate its claim, so it is possible that it was wrong again."

Dr I S Gilada, who is the founder of Mumbai NGO People's Health
Organisation and has been working in the field for 20 years, said that
though the data can be a good pointer, its reliability can only be
proven after being ratified by various international agencies.

"The Indian Government uses HIV data to understand how its programmes
are working, where it is not and what needs to be done," said Dr
Gilada. "If we assume that HIV data calculated by Indian authorities
is incorrect, does it mean the policy decisions were flawed? If so, it
a serious issue."

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:2749 US lawmaker presses J&J on recall, expands probe

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US lawmaker presses J&J on recall, expands probe
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE65056220100601

(Reuters) - The head of the U.S. House Oversight and Government Reform
Committee expanded his investigation of Johnson & Johnson on Tuesday,
saying another 2008 recall casts doubt on the drugmaker's pledge of
protecting consumers.

HEALTH

Chairman Edolphus Towns, in a letter to the drugmaker, asked the
company for all records related to the 2008 recall of some adult
versions of its Motrin pain reliever, including the identities of
employees involved, as well as outside contractors and subcontractors
who worked for J&J.

The letter follows a May 27 hearing on the latest J&J recall of more
than 40 liquid children's medications, including Children's Tylenol.

At the hearing, Towns questioned the 2008 incident, calling it a
"phantom recall" in which J&J-hired contractors were instructed to buy
the Motrin products from various retailers, "'act' like a regular
customer" and not mention any recall.

When the U.S. Food and Drug Administration later found out about the
purchases, J&J initiated a formal recall, Towns said, citing internal
company documents the committee reviewed as part of its probe.

Colleen Goggins, worldwide chairman of J&J's consumer group, told
lawmakers at the hearing that J&J had sought to obtain certain Motrin
products sold mostly at gasoline stations to determine whether a
recall was needed.

J&J Spokesman Jeffrey Leebaw said on Tuesday the drugmaker would
respond to Towns' request.

(Reporting by Susan Heavey, editing by Gerald E. McCormick)

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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Medarticles Plear arrange full article

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Dear Anand
 
Please find DOI no please arrange full articles
 
Thank you
 

1. Nat Prod Res. 2005 Sep;19(6):567-71.

In vitro enzyme inhibition activities of crude ethanolic extracts derived from medicinal plants of Pakistan.     Khattak S, Saeed-Ur-Rehman, Shah HU, Khan T, Ahmad M

DOI: 10.1080/14786410410001721986

Number of References: 21

 

2. Neurochem Int. 1997 Feb;30(2):181-90.

Systemic administration of defined extracts from Withania somnifera (Indian Ginseng) and Shilajit differentially affects cholinergic but not glutamatergic and GABAergic markers in rat brain.

Schliebs R, Liebmann A, Bhattacharya SK, Kumar A, Ghosal S, Bigl V.

doi:10.1016/S0197-0186(96)00025-3 | How to Cite or Link Using DOI

 

3. Validation of HPTLC method for the analysis of taraxerol in Clitoria ternatea

Venkatesan Kumar, Kakali Mukherjee, Satheesh Kumar, Mainak Mal, Pulok K. Mukherjee

Phytochemical Analysis   Volume   19 ,  Issue   3 , Pages244  -  250

10.1002/pca.1042  About DOI

 

4. Type I pro-collagen promoting and anti-collagenase activities of Phyllanthus emblica extract in mouse fibroblasts   P. Chanvorachote, V. Pongrakhananon, S. Luanpitpong, B. Chanvorachote, S. Wannachaiyasit, U. Nimmannit

International Journal of Cosmetic Science   Volume   32 ,  Issue   3 , Pages233  -  233

Journal compilation © 2010

10.1111/j.1468-2494.2010.00577_1.x About DOI

 

5. A novel method to study the skin-lightening effect of topical materials

N. Muizzuddin, K. D. Marenus, T. Mammone, D. H. Maes

International Journal of Cosmetic Science   Volume   32 ,  Issue   3 , Pages236  -  237]

10.1111/j.1468-2494.2010.00578_3.x About DOI

 

6. J. Agric. Food Chem., 2010, 58 (7), pp 4428–4433

Extraction, quantification, and antioxidant activities of phenolics from pericarp and seeds of bitter melons (Momordica charantia) harvested at three maturity stages (immature, mature, and ripe).

Horax R, Hettiarachchy N, Chen P.

DOI: 10.1021/jf9029578

 

7. J. Agric. Food Chem., 2010, 58 (3), pp 1892–1897

Extraction, fractionation and characterization of bitter melon seed proteins.

Horax R, Hettiarachchy N, Over K, Chen P, Gbur E.

Publication Date (Web): January 6, 2010 (Article)

DOI: 10.1021/jf902903s

 

8. Preparation of Triterpene Saponins from the Fruit of Momordica Charantia L. by High Speed Countercurrent Chromatography (HSCCC)

Qizhen Du ;Jie Yuan

Journal of Liquid Chromatography & Related Technologies, 1520-572X, Volume 28, Issue 11, 2005, Pages 1717 – 1724

DOI: 10.1081/JLC-200060454

 

9. Expert Opinion on Drug Delivery

May 2005, Vol. 2, No. 3, Pages 419-433 ,

Strategies to improve oral drug bioavailability

Isabel Gomez-Orellana‌

DOI 10.1517/17425247.2.3.419

 

10. Novel formulation strategies for improving oral bioavailability of drugs with poor membrane permeation or presystemic metabolism

Bruce J. Aungst

Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences

Volume   82 ,  Issue   10 , Pages979  -  987

10.1002/jps.2600821002  About DOI

 

11. Supercritical Fluid Chromatography

Larry T. Taylor

Anal. Chem., Article ASAP

DOI: 10.1021/ac101194x

Publication Date (Web): May 13, 2010

 

12. Cellular Antioxidant Activity of Common Vegetables

Wei Song†, Christopher M. Derito†, M. Keshu Liu†, Xiangjiu He†, Mei Dong† and Rui Hai Liu*†‡

J. Agric. Food Chem., Article ASAP

DOI: 10.1021/jf9035832

Publication Date (Web): May 12, 2010

 

13. Emerging Pesticide Residue Issues and Analytical Approaches†

Yolanda Fintschenko*§#, Alexander J. Krynitsky and Jon W. Wong

J. Agric. Food Chem., 2010, 58 (10), pp 5859–5861

DOI: 10.1021/jf904599w

 

14. Clinical Pharmacology & Therapeutics (2010) 87 2, 235–238.

Clinical Pharmacology and Dietary Supplements: An Evolving Relationship

B J Gurley

doi:10.1038/clpt.2009.245

 

15. Modern Extraction Techniques

Douglas E. Raynie

Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota 57007

Anal. Chem., Article ASAP

DOI: 10.1021/ac060641y

 

16. Modern Extraction Techniques

Douglas E. Raynie*

Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, South Dakota State University, Brookings, South Dakota 57007

Anal. Chem., Article ASAP

DOI: 10.1021/ac101223c

 

17. Vitamin D-regulated calcium transport in Caco-2 cells: unique in vitro model

Giuliano and Wood

Am J Physiol Gastrointest Liver Physiol.1991; 260: 207-212

DOI: 0193-1857/91

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rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 6 topics - digest

Buzz It
rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Motorized bikes in the classics - 12 messages, 9 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c8f0a950cf65e973?hl=en
* Important Liz Hatch Update ! - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/33650af6ddc95fa6?hl=en
* Floyd is now unemployed... - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/5faf06f484b4977c?hl=en
* Federal Investigation widened... - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/27cdb77f089bfdaf?hl=en
* Turns out Lance Armstrong is just slightly above average. - 5 messages, 5
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/cd6f8236fe92c0cc?hl=en
* Cleaning and scrubbing Lafferty - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/e13fa72713b23b14?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Motorized bikes in the classics
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c8f0a950cf65e973?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 11:53 am
From: Anton Berlin


On Jun 1, 12:59 pm, Ningi <ningiEGGSANDS...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> On 01/06/2010 18:23, Brad Anders wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> > <kgringi...@hotmail.com>  wrote:
> >> On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle Legate<n...@none.com>  wrote:
>
> >>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> >>>> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> >>>> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> >>>> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> >>> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> >>> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> >>> missed it.
>
> >> Dumbass -
>
> >> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>
> >> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>
> >> thanks,
>
> >> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> > IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> > they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> > through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>
> > Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> > bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> > endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> > slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> > croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> > a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> > climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> > of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> > short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> > championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> > coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> > masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> > wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> > wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>
> > A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> > you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> > pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>
> Maybe we'll see a surprising increases in the number of 'accidents'
> requiring a new bike with a couple of hours to go.
>
> Pete- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Like Cadel's bike change in the Giro?


== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 12:10 pm
From: Brad Anders


On Jun 1, 11:53 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle Legate <n...@none.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > > > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> > > > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> > > > And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> > > > missed it.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>
> > > Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> > IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> > they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> > through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>
> > Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> > bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> > endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> > slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> > croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> > a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> > climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> > of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> > short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> > championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> > coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> > masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> > wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> > wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>
> > A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> > you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> > pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>
> > Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
> sound would give them away in a second  - unless you're talking about
> the wing eating competition.

You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.

Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.

Brad Anders


== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 12:49 pm
From: DA74


On Jun 1, 9:50 am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net>
wrote:
> On 6/1/2010 11:32 AM, DA74 wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 7:30 am, Fred Flintstein<bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net>
> > wrote:
> >> On 5/31/2010 7:50 PM, DA74 wrote:
>
> >>> All that said Riis at Hautacam in '96 still cracks me up. Fucking
> >>> dirty scoundrel.
>
> >> Compared to who?
>
> >> Fred Flintstein
>
> > To "whom" you ask?
>
> > Well of course in comparison to the long list of clean tour winners
> > fucktard.
> > -DA74
>
> Fockstick,
>
> I'm just curious, whom was the highest placed clean rider
> that year?
>
> Fred Flintstein- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Fucktard,
Jean-Luc Masdupuy. Everyone know that. Now will you finally accept
help and get treatment for your Aspergers?
-DA74


== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 3:07 pm
From: thirty-six


On 31 May, 20:21, Kyle Legate <n...@none.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational [T]witch hunt.
> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> missed it.

No, the right hand movement was quite obvious. He was bringing his
fist around to grab more lever as he powered (human) up the climb.


== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 3:12 pm
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Jun 1, 12:10 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 1, 11:53 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>
> > > <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle Legate <n...@none.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>
> > > > > > Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> > > > > > Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> > > > > > button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>
> > > > > I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> > > > > And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> > > > > missed it.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>
> > > > Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>
> > > > thanks,
>
> > > > Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>
> > > IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> > > they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> > > through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>
> > > Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> > > bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> > > endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> > > slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> > > croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> > > a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> > > climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> > > of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> > > short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> > > championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> > > coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> > > masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> > > wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> > > wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>
> > > A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> > > you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> > > pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>
> > > Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
> > sound would give them away in a second  - unless you're talking about
> > the wing eating competition.
>
> You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
> essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
> fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.
>
> Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
> to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.
>

The limitation on these things is going to be the
battery, as it usually is on portable electrical devices.

The battery that the stock Gruber assist uses is lithium ion,
has a capacity of about 135 W*hour, and is said to weigh
1.7 kg including casing etc. (The motor weighs another
0.9 kg.) It works out to about 100 W*hour/kg for the battery
weight alone, which is a typical energy density for Li-ion batteries.
A pro rider using it to cheat at the moment could have used a
lower capacity battery to save weight and make it less
noticeable.

With that battery technology, to do 200 W for an hour
would require a 2 kg battery, plus another 1 kg or a
bit more for the motor and packaging. That's getting to
adding 7 pounds to the bike, starting to be really
noticeable if anyone lifts the bike. 400 W for an hour
and you need a 4 kg battery. Too heavy for cheating
at most amateur racing. Certainly capable of causing
chaos on the bike path.

I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.

Fredmaster Ben


== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 4:58 pm
From: "z, fred"


Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
> On Jun 1, 12:10 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 11:53 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
>>>> <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle Legate <n...@none.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
>>>>>>> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
>>>>>>> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
>>>>>>> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
>>>>>> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
>>>>>> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
>>>>>> missed it.
>>>>> Dumbass -
>>>>> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
>>>>> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
>>>> IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
>>>> they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
>>>> through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
>>>> Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
>>>> bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
>>>> endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
>>>> slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
>>>> croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
>>>> a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
>>>> climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
>>>> of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
>>>> short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
>>>> championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
>>>> coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
>>>> masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
>>>> wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
>>>> wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
>>>> A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
>>>> you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
>>>> pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
>>>> Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
>>> sound would give them away in a second - unless you're talking about
>>> the wing eating competition.
>> You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
>> essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
>> fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.
>>
>> Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
>> to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.
>>
>
> The limitation on these things is going to be the
> battery, as it usually is on portable electrical devices.
>
> The battery that the stock Gruber assist uses is lithium ion,
> has a capacity of about 135 W*hour, and is said to weigh
> 1.7 kg including casing etc. (The motor weighs another
> 0.9 kg.) It works out to about 100 W*hour/kg for the battery
> weight alone, which is a typical energy density for Li-ion batteries.
> A pro rider using it to cheat at the moment could have used a
> lower capacity battery to save weight and make it less
> noticeable.
>
> With that battery technology, to do 200 W for an hour
> would require a 2 kg battery, plus another 1 kg or a
> bit more for the motor and packaging. That's getting to
> adding 7 pounds to the bike, starting to be really
> noticeable if anyone lifts the bike. 400 W for an hour
> and you need a 4 kg battery. Too heavy for cheating
> at most amateur racing. Certainly capable of causing
> chaos on the bike path.
>
> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>
> Fredmaster Ben
>
>

The interesting thing about the motorized bike issue is that unlike
riders who get thrown under the bus by the team for doping, the team has
direct involvement via the team mechanics who work on the bikes and the
team's ownership of the bikes.


== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 5:00 pm
From: Brad Anders


On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> part because they're expensive.  4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> a lot of money.  It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> a dedicated century rider, though.  I could see these
> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.

Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
like P-B-P.

Won't that cause a shitstorm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
out batteries at the checkpoints.

Brad Anders

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 5:12 pm
From: thirty-six


On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> > part because they're expensive.  4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> > a lot of money.  It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> > a dedicated century rider, though.  I could see these
> > showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>
> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
> like P-B-P.
>
> Won't that cause a shitstorm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
> out batteries at the checkpoints.

Electrolyte in water bottles :-)


== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 5:33 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


thirty-six wrote:
> On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
>>> part because they're expensive. 4 kg of Li-ion battery is
>>> a lot of money. It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
>>> a dedicated century rider, though. I could see these
>>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
>> like P-B-P.
>>
>> Won't that cause a shitstorm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
>> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
>> out batteries at the checkpoints.
>
> Electrolyte in water bottles :-)

A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
bottle cage to provide contact points.


== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 5:34 pm
From: Ben Trovato


On Jun 1, 4:58 pm, "z, fred" <N...@not.ca> wrote:
> Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
> > On Jun 1, 12:10 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 1, 11:53 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Jun 1, 12:23 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On May 31, 12:33 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> >>>> <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On May 31, 12:21 pm, Kyle Legate <n...@none.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 31 May 2010 10:30:52 -0700, dave a wrote:
> >>>>>>> Cancellera's move in PR was on a flat paved section with no crowds.
> >>>>>>> Maybe he waited until he was clear of the break to punch the turbo
> >>>>>>> button so the motor wouldn't be heard.
> >>>>>> I see Cancellera's been singled out for the rbr irrational witch hunt.
> >>>>>> And a new record, I think. Tried and convicted in two posts, and I almost
> >>>>>> missed it.
> >>>>> Dumbass -
> >>>>> Check out the videos in the "motorized doping" thread.
> >>>>> Pretty interesting. I'm not sure what to think.
> >>>>> thanks,
> >>>>> Fred. presented by Gringioni.
> >>>> IMO, these devices are great. I doubt any pro would use one because if
> >>>> they got caught, they're looking at a lifetime ban, assuming they live
> >>>> through the ass-kicking they'd get from other pros.
> >>>> Where I see the real value of these motors is in the poseur/pseudo-
> >>>> bike racer and fatty masters world. The possibilities here are
> >>>> endless. Such a device would, as Davide said, allow a 50-year-old fat
> >>>> slob to ride with Giro-level riders, at least until the battery
> >>>> croaked. I can see this thing turning those "A" level club rides into
> >>>> a walk in the part for the poseur, who can now hang with the best
> >>>> climbers in his club on the steepest grades, and sprint for the glory
> >>>> of the town limit sign with the fastest sprinters. It will only be a
> >>>> short time until someone uses one in a fatty master's national
> >>>> championship road race, blazing by their feeble competition to win the
> >>>> coveted stars-and-stripes jersey. Cost will be no object, as fatty
> >>>> masters have more gobs of cash to burn. Anyone who would drop $3K on
> >>>> wheels and $5K on an SRM, just to hang with the group on a club ride,
> >>>> wouldn't bat an eye shelling out the bucks for one of these things.
> >>>> A brave new world awaits. Henry, if you want to add to your millions,
> >>>> you'd re-tool your shop to start turning these things out for $5K a
> >>>> pop. You'd have plenty of customers.
> >>>> Brad Anders- Hide quoted text -
> >>>> - Show quoted text -
> >>> No screaming crowds at the Fatty Master World Championships, the motor
> >>> sound would give them away in a second  - unless you're talking about
> >>> the wing eating competition.
> >> You're thinking first generation. Second generation versions will be
> >> essentially noise-free, if that's what's needed to sneak them into the
> >> fatty masters peloton. Chang's already working on it.
>
> >> Future versions will put out 400 W for an hour or more. I can't wait
> >> to see the chaos they'll cause on the boulevard.
>
> > The limitation on these things is going to be the
> > battery, as it usually is on portable electrical devices.
>
> > The battery that the stock Gruber assist uses is lithium ion,
> > has a capacity of about 135 W*hour, and is said to weigh
> > 1.7 kg including casing etc.  (The motor weighs another
> > 0.9 kg.)   It works out to about 100 W*hour/kg for the battery
> > weight alone, which is a typical energy density for Li-ion batteries.
> > A pro rider using it to cheat at the moment could have used a
> > lower capacity battery to save weight and make it less
> > noticeable.
>
> > With that battery technology, to do 200 W for an hour
> > would require a 2 kg battery, plus another 1 kg or a
> > bit more for the motor and packaging.  That's getting to
> > adding 7 pounds to the bike, starting to be really
> > noticeable if anyone lifts the bike.  400 W for an hour
> > and you need a 4 kg battery.  Too heavy for cheating
> > at most amateur racing.  Certainly capable of causing
> > chaos on the bike path.
>
> > I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> > part because they're expensive.  4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> > a lot of money.  It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> > a dedicated century rider, though.  I could see these
> > showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
>
> > Fredmaster Ben
>
> The interesting thing about the motorized bike issue is that unlike
> riders who get thrown under the bus by the team for doping, the team has
> direct involvement via the team mechanics who work on the bikes and the
> team's ownership of the bikes.

The wrenches will want to revise the way the pot gets split.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 6:15 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


Anton Berlin wrote:
> I am going to side with the 'this may be happening' camp - Here's why
> I think it's possible
>
> The crowds drown out the noise of the motor.
>
> An extra few pounds or kilos on a bike really wouldn't make much of a
> difference in a flat race (see analytical cycling)
>
> Tactics would allow the user just the advantage to blow up his
> opponents at critical times in the race. They have to expel excess
> energy to counter the assisted move. Even a few of these moves would
> be enough to make a difference in top level riders.
>
> Lastly he could use the assist to solo home in the last few kilos or
> to motor pace himself up to speed and then milk that speed for some
> time, then repeat. No rider could keep up with.
>
> Watching the spring classics I was amazed at Cancellera's superhuman
> efforts but now I am thinking there's some doubt.
>
> I expect that winner's bikes will be inspected and even bikes being
> changed out at critical times will now be examined as well.
>
> Is there any depth these guys won't stoop to in order to win a race?
>
> It almost makes Armstrong's decades long record of cheating seem
> admirable.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/cancellara-calls-motorized-bikes-claims-stupid-as-uci-looks-at-scanning-bikes_119452


== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 6:55 pm
From: "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."


On Jun 1, 5:33 pm, "K. Fred Gauss"
<Some...@Somewhere.You.Dont.Wanna.Be> wrote:
> thirty-six wrote:
> > On 2 June, 01:00, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 1, 3:12 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I'd guess that they are not all over the bike path yet in
> >>> part because they're expensive.  4 kg of Li-ion battery is
> >>> a lot of money.  It's within a Fattie Masters budget or even
> >>> a dedicated century rider, though.  I could see these
> >>> showing up at El Tour de Tucson pretty soon.
> >> Good point, and I also expect to see them in the big randonneur events
> >> like P-B-P.
>
> >> Won't that cause a shitstorm! Those P-B-P guys are even more serious
> >> than the pros. Someone will figure out a stealth way to quickly switch
> >> out batteries at the checkpoints.
>
> > Electrolyte in water bottles :-)
>
> A battery that looks like a water bottle would work. Modify the water
> bottle cage to provide contact points.


Dumbass -

They already have batteries that look like water bottles (for night
lights).

thanks,

Fred. presented by Gringioni.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Important Liz Hatch Update !
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/33650af6ddc95fa6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 11:55 am
From: Anton Berlin


On Jun 1, 10:16 am, "A. Dumas Fred" <alexan...@dumas.fr> wrote:
> Hey asshole, give it a rest and go bang your fat girlfriend.

Liz reads RBR -

My gf doesn't and besides she's not fat, just great 34DDD natural
breasts. (unlike your hand)


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 2:46 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


On 06/01/2010 11:55 AM, Anton Berlin wrote:

> Liz reads RBR -

I didn't think she was THAT big a dumbass.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Floyd is now unemployed...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/5faf06f484b4977c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 1:06 pm
From: Michael Press


In article <j4cNn.17501$%u7.5235@newsfe14.iad>, "z, fred" <Nope@not.ca>
wrote:

> Anton Berlin wrote:
> > On May 31, 8:04 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On May 31, 5:19 pm, "Tom Kunich" <tkun...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>> "Pave Maria" <carmellatheroachkil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>>> news:6772828f-1cc6-4ac8-a494-> >
> >>>> 6c57f927d...@t34g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> >>>> On May 29, 6:21 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> ...because rashaan got annoyed, not because of any 'roids but because
> >>>>> of a check Floyd wanted Andrew to void:
> >>>>> http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/28/sports/la-sp-floyd-landis-bah...
> >>>> So, like, what is Floyd going to do now?
> >>> What does he need to do? His fortune is made if he invested it wisely.
> >> Exactly. I read in the Boca Breeze that he took his first big fat
> >> Mercury check from Horsetoof and invested it in a 12 month CD that's
> >> been rolling over at 2% each year. He's going to coast off part of the
> >> interest and put the rest in real estate at Del Boca Vista.
> >> -DA74
> >
> > I thought Del Boca Vista was sold out. Unless Floyd planning on
> > moving in to Phase II.
>
> http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7489699

"Dr. Heidegger's Experiment" by Nathaniel Hawthorne.

<http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/nh/dhe.html>

--
Michael Press


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 4:47 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


Michael Press wrote:
> In article <j4cNn.17501$%u7.5235@newsfe14.iad>, "z, fred" <Nope@not.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Anton Berlin wrote:
>>> On May 31, 8:04 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On May 31, 5:19 pm, "Tom Kunich" <tkun...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> "Pave Maria" <carmellatheroachkil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:6772828f-1cc6-4ac8-a494-> >
>>>>>> 6c57f927d...@t34g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> On May 29, 6:21 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> ...because rashaan got annoyed, not because of any 'roids but because
>>>>>>> of a check Floyd wanted Andrew to void:
>>>>>>> http://articles.latimes.com/2010/may/28/sports/la-sp-floyd-landis-bah...
>>>>>> So, like, what is Floyd going to do now?
>>>>> What does he need to do? His fortune is made if he invested it wisely.
>>>> Exactly. I read in the Boca Breeze that he took his first big fat
>>>> Mercury check from Horsetoof and invested it in a 12 month CD that's
>>>> been rolling over at 2% each year. He's going to coast off part of the
>>>> interest and put the rest in real estate at Del Boca Vista.
>>>> -DA74
>>> I thought Del Boca Vista was sold out. Unless Floyd planning on
>>> moving in to Phase II.
>> http://vimeo.com/moogaloop.swf?clip_id=7489699
>
> "Dr. Heidegger's Experiment" by Nathaniel Hawthorne.
>
> <http://www.ibiblio.org/eldritch/nh/dhe.html>
>

The story is OK, but the footnote is wonderful!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Federal Investigation widened...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/27cdb77f089bfdaf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 2:20 pm
From: DA74


On Jun 1, 10:30 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> On Jun 1, 11:21 am, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 1, 8:26 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 1, 10:06 am, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 1, 4:09 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On May 29, 1:44 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On May 29, 6:22 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On May 28, 6:15 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On May 28, 2:24 pm, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On May 28, 3:34 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On May 28, 9:31 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On May 28, 11:20 am, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > On May 28, 9:12 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 28, 10:33 am, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 28, 8:24 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 28, 9:55 am, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 28, 3:50 am, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 27, 11:55 pm, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 27, 11:29 pm, Andy Coggan <acog...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Keep in mind that we are talking abou two riders with TdF GC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ambitions, meaning that their strongest allegiance is to themselves.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > dumbass,
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > fuentes was working with several TdF GC riders at the same time.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said, *if* Lim did in fact provide transfusions to both Landis
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and Leipheimer, he didn't do it because he was paid to do so by Landis/
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Phonak.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy Coggan
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cogster - Come on now. No one suggested Floyd or Phonak paid for
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Leipheimer's alleged transfusion from Lim. Your point was that you
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thought Floyd's story was "illogical" because that would have Lim
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > working on both riders while he was an employee of Floyd/Phonak. (I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > think everyone else here assumed Levi would cover the cost of his own
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > transfusion).
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In 2005 and 2006, Lim was paid by Landis to be his *personal*
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > assistant, and the two were quite closely connected. Thus, as I said
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > before if he (Lim) performed a transfusion for Leipheimer (another GC
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > contender, but riding for a different team), he must have done so as a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > favor to someone, or because he was paid additional money by someone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > other than Landis. Neither of these two possibilties make a lot of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > sense to me when you consider that the allegation is that the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > transfusions took place at the same time, i.e., that Landis was aware
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that Lim was (allegedly) providing his services to Leipheimer as well.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IOW, why would Landis let Lim undermine his own chances that way, and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > why would Lim be so up-front about his disloyal/mercenary behavior?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy Coggan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cogster - The ProTour world may be a lot more inbred than you purport
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > to understand it to be. You are basing your argument on the assumption
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > that Floyd's payments to Lim retained him as his exclusive
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > preparatore. What caused you to make this assumption?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm not making that assumption. I'm making the assumption that if Lim
> > > > > > > > > > > > > were going to sell his services to somebody else, he wouldn't be so
> > > > > > > > > > > > > obvious about it.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy Coggan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > OK. Then you are making the assumption that Floyd felt he had an
> > > > > > > > > > > > exclusive relationship with Lim. Why do you make that assumption?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Because of 1) the obvious closeness of their relationship, and 2) the
> > > > > > > > > > > role model Armstrong likely provided to Landis as to how such
> > > > > > > > > > > professional arrangements should be structured (just ask John Cobb).
>
> > > > > > > > > > I just cannot see where you make the leap from what you describe as
> > > > > > > > > > "obvious closeness" to exclusivity, where you think Landis had Lim all
> > > > > > > > > > to himself. Then you make an even bigger leap by assuming Landis took
> > > > > > > > > > professional arrangement cues from his "role model" - You then go on
> > > > > > > > > > to assume that Lance sets up his aerodynamic professional arrangements
> > > > > > > > > > the same way he set up his preparatore professional arrangements.
> > > > > > > > > > Seriously?
>
> > > > > > > > > Seriously (in that I find the conclusion plausible, not that I'm
> > > > > > > > > convinced that it is true). That is, if I were paying someone to act
> > > > > > > > > as my "preparatore" I would most certainly do my best to keep the
> > > > > > > > > arrangement exclusive (be that by paying them more, threatening them,
> > > > > > > > > keeping them under close tabs, whatever). Conversely, if I were acting
> > > > > > > > > as a "preparatore" I wouldn't go flaunting the fact that I was working
> > > > > > > > > with multiple competing riders by performing transfusions in the same
> > > > > > > > > room at the same time, as that would tend to undercut the value of my
> > > > > > > > > services.
>
> > > > > > > > Well you should take comfort in the fact that it appears you are a
> > > > > > > > whole lot smarter at this dope thing than Floyd, Levi and Allen
> > > > > > > > Fucking Lim.
> > > > > > > > > > > Again, I don't consider what Landis has alleged (with respect to Lim
> > > > > > > > > > > providing transfusions) *impossible* - just quite implausible (and not
> > > > > > > > > > > just because of the fact that Leipheimer was supposedly also there).
>
> > > > > > > > > > Right. You feel this way because of a deck stacked with your personal
> > > > > > > > > > assumptions that really don't have any basis in facts.
>
> > > > > > > > > > Do you think it's possible that these ProTour riders, especially the
> > > > > > > > > > very small US contingent share more information than you might
> > > > > > > > > > realize? Have you ever been to Girona? It's quite small. Most of these
> > > > > > > > > > guys all live within blocks of each other, that is if they're not
> > > > > > > > > > sharing the same house. Did you ever think that maybe these
> > > > > > > > > > friendships transcend the temporary nature of the teams they are
> > > > > > > > > > currently under contract with? Did you ever think that maybe just
> > > > > > > > > > maybe they all band together and it's a matter of "us" versus "them",
> > > > > > > > > > with "them" being everyone outside their small tight group? And that
> > > > > > > > > > maybe they might share the same time proven, test proven, "safe"
> > > > > > > > > > preparation methods with each other? Did you ever think that this
> > > > > > > > > > preparation for a race might be the same to them as getting a bike
> > > > > > > > > > tuned up? Did you ever think that maybe none of this is a big secret
> > > > > > > > > > to those on the inside?
>
> > > > > > > > > As I said before, Landis has a credibility problem, and he himself
> > > > > > > > > admits that he has no physical evidence to support his allegations.
> > > > > > > > > You therefore have to evaluate the truthfulness of his accusations in
> > > > > > > > > light of normal human behavior, known personal allegiances and
> > > > > > > > > grudges, people's training and background, etc. In that context, his
> > > > > > > > > claim that Lim provided transfusions to both he and Leipheimer and at
> > > > > > > > > the same place and the same time does not make much sense to me.
>
> > > > > > > > I don't think there is any mistaking the fact that Floyd has a lot of
> > > > > > > > problems. So would you at least agree that Allen Fucking Lim is a
> > > > > > > > shitty physiologist because he had no clue his rider with whom he had
> > > > > > > > an exclusive personal training relationship was doped up to his eye-
> > > > > > > > teeth?
>
> > > > > > > No, I would not agree with that statement. Lim is not a medical
> > > > > > > doctor, and would not/did not have access to anything other than his
> > > > > > > power data. As I have pointed out to Lafferty (and been quoted by
> > > > > > > CyclingNews, etc.) many times before, you can't rely on such numbers
> > > > > > > (or VO2max testing, etc.) to definitively determine who is or isn't
> > > > > > > doping.
>
> > > > > > > Andy Coggan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > How can you say with such certainty that Lim did not have access to
> > > > > > anything other than Floyd's power data?
>
> > > > > I make that *assumption* based upon both public reports and knowledge
> > > > > of Lim's career path, which would make him rather ill-positioned to
> > > > > interpret such data in the first place. Indeed, even Landis himself
> > > > > didn't claim that Lim was aware of Landis one positive test (as Landis
> > > > > continues to insist that it was a false positive).
>
> > > > > Andy Coggan- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > You worded it more strongly than an *assumption* ("would not/did not
> > > > have access to anything other than his power data"). Like I said
> > > > earlier in the thread, you're making statements of certaintly on this
> > > > case based on your personal assumptions.
>
> > > No, I'm sharing my personal opinions, which as I said previously can
> > > be considered a litmus test of what a prosecutor might have to face.
> > > That is, if you start from a presumption of innocence and then factor
> > > in the lack of any physical evidence or corroborating testimony (to
> > > date, anyway), it is hard to take Landis's accusation against Lim (and
> > > Leipheimer) seriously, not least ...
>
> > > read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > I don't understand how your *assumptions* have anything to do with a
> > litmus test with which a prosecutor has to contend.
>
> Because any logical person serving on a jury (or a judge) would start
> from the same assumptions/be evaluating the same facts (or at least
> they would if the attorneys did a good job of bringing them out).


Right but no prosecutor is going to bring a case in front of a jury
with just dopey Floyd's accusation. Don't be ridiculous. The
allegation is just a starting point. If this thing goes anywhere near
a courtroom you very well know that there has to be evidence
independent of what Floyd has alleged.


> > Floyd's accusations are merely the opening of a door for investigators
> > to begin assembling facts. If your point is that his allegations alone
> > are not enough to bring charges or sanctions then we are in complete
> > agreement.
>
> It's a bit more than that. That is, based on the information currently
> available I don't really believe that Landis is telling the truth re.
> Lim.
>
> > But if investigators get corroborating witnesses then we
> > have another story...
>
> > My questions to you arise from my opinion that your opinions seem to
> > have little basis in fact. You start with a presumption of knowledge
> > based on assumptions and distant observation.
>
> Au contraire: my opinions are based entirely upon the *known* facts.

Known facts? You want it both ways. Because you stated this earlier
earlier:

"You therefore have to evaluate the truthfulness of his accusations in
light of normal human behavior, known personal allegiances and
grudges, people's training and background, etc."

In reality, your *known* facts are hard to distinguish from your
opinions. You've illustrated that throughout this entire thread.

For instance, that you *know* that Lim didn't have access to anything
other than Floyd's power data because of "public reports" and your
*knowledge* of his career path, that you *know* Lim and Floyd had an
exclusive relationship because you *know* how Lance structured all his
professional arrangements because you heard something from John Cobb,
and that you *know* Floyd would have done the same thing because you
somehow *know* that Lance was his mentor, and you *know* two TdF
riders with GC ambitions from opposing teams would not get
transfusions from the same guy in the same hotel room etc. etc.

I think you would be much more credible if you would either be more
objective and less self-assured about what you think you *know* or be
more forthcoming about your personal bias which seems to lean towards
those named by Floyd.
-DA74


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 2:21 pm
From: Zeno


On May 26, 5:45 am, Keith <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> ...http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/scope-of-us-doping-inquiry-may-be-wid...
>
> Looks like the feds will be asking some questions to LA and company,
> probably won't be a good idea to lie...

This investigation strikes me as very selective and kind of strange.
Major League Baseball knew that it's athletes were doing performance
enhancers for many years, but didn't implement even the most
rudimentary tests used in other sports to try and control it. The
clubs may not have purchased or indirectly paid for illegal drugs, but
there are credible stories of amphetamines being freely and openly
available in club houses going going back to the sixties. (They were
illegal then too.) We now know that some players were injecting
themselves with roids in locker rooms. Athletes who doped were
commiting fraud and the teams were abetting this fraud by doing
nothing about a problem they were well aware existed. "W" was running
the Texas Rangers when they were doped to the gills. Is he going to
be indicted?

Why aren't all the athletes who have tested positive being indicted?
What about Manny? There's a fraud if there ever was one, both
ethically and legally. The League wanted McGuire to break the record,
so they aided and abetted him by doing nothing to test him or anybody
else when they had plenty of reason, as responsible law abiding
citizens, to do so. And the players union was more than happy to go
along with it all -- are they indicted? Over the last 40 years, MLB
makes pro cycling look like the Spanish inquisition when it comes to
doping control and enforcement. Why are they getting a virtual pass?
What the feds have done so far to MLB is a pin prick.

The argument that there must be a grain of truth in what Landis is
saying simply because he has made so many (by his own admission
totally unsupported) allegations is laughable, especially considering
his history. In for a penny, in for a pound. Of course Landis knows
that if he doesn't offer lots of what appear to be "details," he won't
be taken seriously. And the more "details" he offers the more likely
it is that some people will start saying, "well he offers so much
detail, at least some of it must be true. He knew it was a blue
refrigerator!" It's called "the big lie."

(If my memory serves from a TV program I saw, LA had a fridge in his
apartment in Spain that he used to keep his stock of Shiner Bock beer
from Texas cold. Maybe it was a blue fridge. Maybe he made a joke
to Floyd about what a tragedy it would be if the power went out and
the beer got hot. From such innocuous 'details,' noxious conspiracy
allegations can be spun. More lies doesn't automatically mean some
truth, though the media sometimes operates on that principle.)

Floyd is obviously inventive and demonstrably doesn't think he is
bound by the truth. He grifted hundreds of thousands of dollars for
his "defense" from well meaning supporters who he thoroughly duped.
That's fraud. (Is he going to be indicted?)

Remember that Floyd recently wrote and published an entire book based
on the premise that he never doped and was being unjustly persecuted.
And of course without "details," nobody will buy his next tell all
book or pay him for interviews. Greed is a powerful motivator. So,
would it be much of a step for him to come up with some juicy
"details" for his recent allegations? Like LA bribed the authorities
to bury positive tests -- and (even harder to believe) a peon like
Floyd knew all about it? Gimme a break! If what Floyd says is true,
then LA and Johan have to the luckiest men alive because they were
running a three ring doping circus that lots of people knew about,
virtually in public, for many years in a sport where a number of
serious minded people have made it their life's work to convict them
on anything they can find.

And revenge can be another motivator. Here is a guy who has the
reputation of being a serious drinker, who admits he put away a fifth
in one night in the middle of the TDF, who is broke and in debt, holed
up (according to the WSJ) in a cabin in the woods, virtually
incommunicado, except for the nasty and threatening emails he has been
firing off in the middle of the night, by his own choice cut off from
his former friends. Floyd's allegations strike me as a revenge
laundry list from someone who is very bitter against those who he
perceived as having done him wrong (real or imagined) or who ignored
his threats and didn't hire him: LA, LA's friends & former wife,
Amgen, other successful American riders, his former teammates, his
former managers, the UCI etc etc. The idea that he is doing all this
to clear his conscience and clean up the sport is the biggest laugh of
all.

Floyd is not Canseco. The circumstances are totally different. I am
all for making dopers pay, even if it is LA, but you have to consider
the source. Sometimes BS is just BS.

Zeno


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 2:44 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


On 06/01/2010 10:30 AM, Andy Coggan wrote:

> Au contraire: my opinions are based entirely upon the *known* facts.

The known facts don't look very reliable here, and not just because of
Landis. Almost everyone involved is motivated to lie.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Turns out Lance Armstrong is just slightly above average.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/cd6f8236fe92c0cc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 2:22 pm
From: Anton Berlin


Using RBR logic -

Lance Armstrong only has one testicle while Americans average just
slightly less than one testicle.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 2:39 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


On 06/01/2010 02:22 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
> Using RBR logic -
>
> Lance Armstrong only has one testicle while Americans average just
> slightly less than one testicle.
>

You're just trying to make yourself feel special for having -3.


== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 4:07 pm
From: bar


On Jun 1, 5:39 pm, "K. Fred Gauss" <F...@fredlier.than.thou> wrote:
> On 06/01/2010 02:22 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>
> > Using RBR logic -
>
> > Lance Armstrong only has one testicle while Americans average just
> > slightly less than one testicle.
>
> You're just trying to make yourself feel special for having -3.

it's not about the testicles, bro.


== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 5:11 pm
From: Brad Anders


On Jun 1, 2:22 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Using RBR logic -
>
> Lance Armstrong only has one testicle while Americans average just
> slightly less than one testicle.

Anton, tell us the real story. What was it? Did he yell at you for not
working in the break, or insult you on a club ride? Even Waddell got
over it, you can, too. It's not too late.

Brad Anders


== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 5:37 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


bar wrote:
> On Jun 1, 5:39 pm, "K. Fred Gauss" <F...@fredlier.than.thou> wrote:
>> On 06/01/2010 02:22 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>>
>>> Using RBR logic -
>>> Lance Armstrong only has one testicle while Americans average just
>>> slightly less than one testicle.
>> You're just trying to make yourself feel special for having -3.
>
> it's not about the testicles, bro.

It apparently is for Anton.

You've got yourself a hell of a book title, though. I think you should
go with it!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cleaning and scrubbing Lafferty
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/e13fa72713b23b14?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jun 1 2010 2:35 pm
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"Frederick the Great" <rubrum@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:rubrum-26E65F.11513901062010@news.albasani.net...
> In article <As-dnVuWTdIcz5jRnZ2dnUVZ_sqdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote:
>
>> "Fred on a stick" <anonymous.cow...@address.invalid> wrote in
>> messagenews:hu0e7e$bgm$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> >
>> > >> The problem isn't in replying to him; rather, it's *how* people
>> > >> reply
>> > >> to him. You can strongly disagree with him in a reply and get an
>> > >> intelligent reply in return, if you don't load it up with a bunch of
>> > >> insults. Gee, what a concept. You can have a civil discourse by
>> > >> being
>> > >> civil. Who'd have thought?
>> >
>> > > Civility of discourse is, of course, always a worthy goal.
>> > > Nonetheless, bias should never trump truth simply because it speaks
>> > > well and softly. One can speak with a civil tongue to a mule but
>> > > sometimes it pays more attention to a big stick. Alas, that is not a
>> > > guarantee and occasionally even the stick doesn't work either on
>> > > mules
>> > > or, as in this particular instance, on a horse's ass.
>> >
>> > I think I have it figured out here.
>> >
>> > Most discussions on rbr take place in a bar. Lubricated by beer, having
>> > to yell to get heard above the din, and exaggerating things so that
>> > there's no possible way someone who's had three too many doesn't know
>> > what you're saying.
>> >
>> > That's the problem. I don't like bars, and I have maybe 5 or so drinks
>> > (drinks that people here would count) a year.
>>
>> =====================
>> Discussions in rbr are much more like smack-talk
>> on a training ride than they are like conversations
>> in a bar.
>>
>> Every now and then, smack talk on a training ride, fueled
>> by adrenaline, degenerates into yelling at each other.
>> You can also see this happen if you hang around enough
>> Masters races. The nature is somewhat diffferent than
>> bar conversations, even drunken ones. Actually, sensible
>> people don't get into arguments in bars - it's not prudent.
>>
>> It's all very well and good to try to shame people for being
>> rude on rbr, but if you read rbr enough, there are some
>> rbr presences that are repeatedly disruptive and not
>> amenable to reasonable discussion. Eventually, I think
>> if you are a pain in the ass long enough, you lose a little
>> of the presumption of politeness. Have you ever seen
>> someone try to reason politely with a talk show host like
>> Bill O'Reilly, or even engage in rational discussion on the
>> old McLaughlin Group? Politeness gets you nowhere under
>> those circumstances because someone always shouts
>> louder. The ultimate solution is to not engage the
>> O'Reillys or McLaughlins at all, which is what Flintstein
>> advocates for BL or TK, but not all of us have his self-control.
>> =====================
>>
>> Fredmaster: You make some good points, and you're right about some venues
>> simply not being the place for polite discussion. Skip "polite" we don't
>> need "polite" it's just a problem when things elevate to the point where
>> the
>> only thing someone is adding to a discussion is the level of insult. By
>> the
>> way, none of this has anything to do with calling someone a "dumbass."
>> Nothing wrong with that. It's like dog's sniffing each other's butts. rbr
>> tradition.
>
> You really do not care about or respect people here;
> and, as most people, you have no idea what dogs are doing.

That might be the nicest thing I'll hear all day (that I have no idea what
dogs are doing). Thanks!

> It is time you started quoting properly in replies.
> Show some respect.
>
> --
> Old Fritz

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

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gsk

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