Saturday, June 12, 2010

Reviews : Cables To Go 13401 USB 2.0 A Male to B Male Cable, White (16.4 Feet/ 5 Meters)

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Rating: (out of 18 reviews)

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Rating: (out of 54 reviews)

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Reviews : Motorola Surfboard SB5100 Cable Modem

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Motorola Surfboard SB5100 Cable Modem.

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Rating: (out of 117 reviews)

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Reviews : Pyle PMDK-102 Pro Audio Speaker Stand and Cable Kit

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  • Professional quality speaker stand kit
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Reviews : Tripp Lite P510-006 VGA Monitor HD15M/F 6-Feet Extension Gold Cable

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Reviews : Yakima LockUp

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Yakima LockUp.

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Rating: (out of 2 reviews)

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rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 4 topics - digest

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rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* If your team dopes to help you win is that cheating? - 6 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72fc7b4516feed86?hl=en
* Federal Prosecutor Assigned to Floyd Case - 7 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bbdb2f1f5fc448b2?hl=en
* Tejay Van Garderen - 9 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/1142570f7f86762d?hl=en
* FRAAM women's leader - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c4ce518b1d1b33ab?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: If your team dopes to help you win is that cheating?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72fc7b4516feed86?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:43 am
From: Amit Ghosh


On Jun 11, 7:51 pm, "i, Fred" <eyef...@n0spam.c0m> wrote:
> Interesting column in the Aspen Times by Roger Marolt where he basically states
> that Lance's teammate(s) doped to help him win at least four TdFs. Doesn't
> that constitute cheating?

dumbass,

the argument is an old one (also under UCI rules cycling is only a
team sport). but cheating is only what is defined in the rules. it
might not be fair but it isn't cheating if your teammate dopes.


== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 1:24 pm
From: Anton Berlin


On Jun 11, 6:51 pm, "i, Fred" <eyef...@n0spam.c0m> wrote:
> Interesting column in the Aspen Times by Roger Marolt where he basically states
> that Lance's teammate(s) doped to help him win at least four TdFs. Doesn't
> that constitute cheating?
>
> "Professional cycling in events such
> as Le Tour de France is a team sport.
> No matter how physically gifted a man
> might be, no matter how hard he trains,
> no matter how fiercely determined he
> is to succeed, he can't win a
> multistage race of Le Tour's magnitude
> (typically covering more than 2,100
> miles in just three-and-a-half weeks
> with nearly 100,000 vertical feet of
> climbing along the way) without the
> aid of an exceptionally talented team.
>
> Given that absolute reliance on your
> teammates then, was it not cheating
> for Armstrong to rely on those who
> used PEDs on his behalf to bring home
> that coveted collection of yellow
> jerseys? If PEDs aren't coursing
> through your own legs, but rather
> through the arteries and veins of
> those who are pacing attack groups
> for you and reeling in breakaways
> for your benefit, doesn't that help
> you win just the same as if you
> injected the drugs into your own body?
> If anything it is far more ignoble to
> rely on others to take the risks of
> infamy and ill health corresponding
> with illegal drug use rather than do
> them yourself in order to capture a
> trophy you will reap the most reward
> from. If nothing else, it's cowardly."
>
> Here's the rest:http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20100611/COLUMN/100619968/1021&pare...
>
> i, Fred

Lance is not that big of a coward to let ONLY his teammates dope, he's
a much smaller coward that would also dope.


== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:43 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


Fred Flintstein wrote:
> K. Fred Gauss wrote:
>> 2. Am I supposed to feel sorry for poor old Tyler, Floyd, etc, for
>> being forced to dope against their will? I can't do it, I tried.
>
> Feel sorry for poor Jan Ullrich, who had a clean team(*)
> and didn't win.
>
> Fred Flintstein
>
> (*) Remember that Zabel was not doping when he was winning
> all those green jerseys. When he confessed it was only to
> stuff before that.

And Ullrich wasn't banned, he just felt like retiring. And Vino is
Russian, so he gets a pass.


== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:49 pm
From: curtis@the-md-russells.org


On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:50:33 -0700 (PDT), Scott
<hendricks_scott@hotmail.com> wrote:

>The argument makes no sense in that it is based on a faulty premise.
>There have been times when a racer wins with a mediocre, if not poor,
>team. For example, it's been said that Lemond won one TdF because of
>his team, once with a weak team, and once in spite of his team. And
>that's only looking at his actual wins. His virtual wins are another
>story.

Weak teams are an aid when it comes to virtual wins. And Lemond (I
think) claims one virtual win 'in spite of his team', but it has no LA
relevancy, other than getting him closer to the magic 7.

And did Lemond start hating LA when LA shook Hinault's hand? Have to
wonder. There's some bitterness there.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...


== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 3:53 pm
From: Fred Flintstein


Fred on a stick wrote:
> On 6/11/2010 4:51 PM, i, Fred wrote:
>
>> http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20100611/COLUMN/100619968/1021&parentprofile=1061
>>
>
> Dumbass,
>
> Gee, it's too bad nobody's ever come up with a suggestion on how to deal
> with that.

Fockstick,

If you gave the average dumbass a choice between your idea
and my idea of summary execution, my idea would win.

We like our bread and circuses.

Fred Flintstein


== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 4:01 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


Fred Flintstein wrote:
> Fred on a stick wrote:
>> On 6/11/2010 4:51 PM, i, Fred wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20100611/COLUMN/100619968/1021&parentprofile=1061
>>>
>>
>> Dumbass,
>>
>> Gee, it's too bad nobody's ever come up with a suggestion on how to
>> deal with that.
>
> Fockstick,
>
> If you gave the average dumbass a choice between your idea
> and my idea of summary execution, my idea would win.
>
> We like our bread and circuses.

My idea involves executing average and below average dumbasses. I can't
take all the credit, my idea was inspired by the writings of Ayn Rand.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Federal Prosecutor Assigned to Floyd Case
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bbdb2f1f5fc448b2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:55 am
From: Amit Ghosh


On Jun 11, 2:09 pm, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:

>
> Yes Adam is watching along with other riders like Andy Hampsten who
> refused to go down the path of doping.  Bravo to them.  I agree that
> human nature being what it is, it's rather idealistic to speak of
> building it anew like Adam does. But Adam is an idealist as well as a
> realist.  He's allowed to dream.

dumbass,

myerson is part of the same camp that believes that doping is a moral
violation that is different than other kinds of cheating. it is just a
sporting violation.

in the races myerson does riders taking illegitimate free laps is as
common as doping, if not more. but he doesn't write emotionally
charged posts about that issue.

he's not the only one guilty of thinking like that. i don't see jeff
novitsky investigating armstrong for the time his team dropped back
and paced him back into the pack behind a race vehicle after a
mechanical - though he was penalized time by the chief commissaire.

taking an illegal feed, chopping another rider or doping are all
sporting violations, with doping being perhaps the most serious - but
it is still a sporting violation and in itself not inherently immoral
or criminal (though activities related to doping might be).

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 12:47 pm
From: "A. Dumas Fred"


Amit Ghosh wrote:
> myerson is part of the same camp that believes that doping is a moral
> violation that is different than other kinds of cheating.

a) You are making that up. b) That's because it is. It is pervasive,
game-changing and results are strongly correlated to cost. No other
forms of cheating are such / have that effect (that I know of). That
makes it different.


== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 1:46 pm
From: "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."


On Jun 12, 12:47 pm, "A. Dumas Fred" <alexan...@dumas.fr> wrote:
> Amit Ghosh wrote:
> > myerson is part of the same camp that believes that doping is a moral
> > violation that is different than other kinds of cheating.
>
> a) You are making that up. b) That's because it is. It is pervasive,
> game-changing and results are strongly correlated to cost. No other
> forms of cheating are such / have that effect (that I know of). That
> makes it different.

Dumbass -

Even if it's more serious, doping is still just a sporting violation.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.


== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:37 pm
From: "A. Dumas Fred"


Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
> On Jun 12, 12:47 pm, "A. Dumas Fred" wrote:
>> Amit Ghosh wrote:
>>> myerson is part of the same camp that believes that doping is a moral
>>> violation that is different than other kinds of cheating.
>> a) You are making that up. b) That's because it is. It is pervasive,
>> game-changing and results are strongly correlated to cost. No other
>> forms of cheating are such / have that effect (that I know of). That
>> makes it different.
>
> Even if it's more serious, doping is still just a sporting violation.

Sure, I don't think Amit was arguing it isn't, or at least that wasn't
how I interpreted it. Breaking the rules is always a moral issue.


== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 3:07 pm
From: Fred on a stick


On 6/12/2010 2:37 PM, A. Dumas Fred wrote:

> Sure, I don't think Amit was arguing it isn't, or at least that wasn't
> how I interpreted it. Breaking the rules is always a moral issue.

If a player unintentionally goes offside in football, that's breaking a
rule. Is it a moral issue?


== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 3:22 pm
From: Scott


On Jun 12, 4:07 pm, Fred on a stick <anonymous.cow...@address.invalid>
wrote:
> On 6/12/2010 2:37 PM, A. Dumas Fred wrote:
>
> > Sure, I don't think Amit was arguing it isn't, or at least that wasn't
> > how I interpreted it. Breaking the rules is always a moral issue.
>
> If a player unintentionally goes offside in football, that's breaking a
> rule. Is it a moral issue?

Unintentionally breaking a rule isn't cheating. It's a foul, or a
penalty, or whatever it's called in the particular sport being
contested at the time.


== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 3:57 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


Fred on a stick wrote:
> On 6/12/2010 2:37 PM, A. Dumas Fred wrote:
>
>> Sure, I don't think Amit was arguing it isn't, or at least that wasn't
>> how I interpreted it. Breaking the rules is always a moral issue.
>
> If a player unintentionally goes offside in football, that's breaking a
> rule. Is it a moral issue?

A better analogy is basketball. Players intentionally foul in basketball
all the time. It's part of the game.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tejay Van Garderen
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/1142570f7f86762d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 12:28 pm
From: Scott


On Jun 12, 12:39 pm, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Who is this guy?
>
> > Brad Anders
>
> dumbass,
>
> he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.

Really, how would you back up that conclusion? What has he won, even
now, or especially back when he was only T Phinney's age, that
supports your assertion?


== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:06 pm
From: Brad Anders


On Jun 12, 11:39 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Who is this guy?
>
> > Brad Anders
>
> dumbass,
>
> he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.

You know, I can google him, but I thought someone here might have some
better insight into this kid, maybe someone who even rode with him and
raced with him up through the cats. I'll just google.

Brad Anders


== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:09 pm
From: Brad Anders


On Jun 12, 2:06 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 11:39 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Who is this guy?
>
> > > Brad Anders
>
> > dumbass,
>
> > he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.
>
> You know, I can google him, but I thought someone here might have some
> better insight into this kid, maybe someone who even rode with him and
> raced with him up through the cats.  I'll just google.
>
> Brad Anders

Good short article I found on him right away. Kid is a "10 time
National Champion" and still fairly anonymous?

Brad Anders


== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:09 pm
From: Brad Anders


On Jun 12, 2:09 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 2:06 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 12, 11:39 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Who is this guy?
>
> > > > Brad Anders
>
> > > dumbass,
>
> > > he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.
>
> > You know, I can google him, but I thought someone here might have some
> > better insight into this kid, maybe someone who even rode with him and
> > raced with him up through the cats.  I'll just google.
>
> > Brad Anders
>
> Good short article I found on him right away. Kid is a "10 time
> National Champion" and still fairly anonymous?
>
> Brad Anders

Link

http://velonews.competitor.com/2009/06/news/the-other-young-american-a-conversation-with-tejay-van-garderen_92868


== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:39 pm
From: "A. Dumas Fred"


Brad Anders wrote:
> You know, I can google him, but I thought someone here might have some
> better insight into this kid, maybe someone who even rode with him and
> raced with him up through the cats. I'll just google.

His English wiki page is freshly written:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tejay_van_Garderen


== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:49 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


Brad Anders wrote:
> Who is this guy?
>
> Brad Anders

Also, isn't it now obvious that Janez Brajkovic is going to kick ASS in
the TdF? He's beating "The Best Stage Racer in the World" (TM) in a
stage race, there is no other conclusion that can be reached.


== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:52 pm
From: curtis@the-md-russells.org


On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:09:11 -0700 (PDT), Brad Anders
<pbanders@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Jun 12, 2:06 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 12, 11:39 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > Who is this guy?
>>
>> > > Brad Anders
>>
>> > dumbass,
>>
>> > he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.
>>
>> You know, I can google him, but I thought someone here might have some
>> better insight into this kid, maybe someone who even rode with him and
>> raced with him up through the cats.  I'll just google.
>>
>> Brad Anders
>
>Good short article I found on him right away. Kid is a "10 time
>National Champion" and still fairly anonymous?
>
>Brad Anders

Well, that was true of the kid that raced on the Eastern seaboard that
had the parents that were UCF officials. I think he started winning
'national championships' as soon as he found an age grade to win in.
Can't remember his name (or theirs) and he was only briefly really in
the national spotlight. Hoping someone else has a better memory for
names. Back in the 80s, 90s.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...


== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 3:18 pm
From: Scott


On Jun 12, 3:52 pm, cur...@the-md-russells.org wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:09:11 -0700 (PDT), Brad Anders
>
>
>
> <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Jun 12, 2:06 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 12, 11:39 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > Who is this guy?
>
> >> > > Brad Anders
>
> >> > dumbass,
>
> >> > he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.
>
> >> You know, I can google him, but I thought someone here might have some
> >> better insight into this kid, maybe someone who even rode with him and
> >> raced with him up through the cats.  I'll just google.
>
> >> Brad Anders
>
> >Good short article I found on him right away. Kid is a "10 time
> >National Champion" and still fairly anonymous?
>
> >Brad Anders
>
> Well, that was true of the kid that raced on the Eastern seaboard that
> had the parents that were UCF officials. I think he started winning
> 'national championships' as soon as he found an age grade to win in.
> Can't remember his name (or theirs) and he was only briefly really in
> the national spotlight. Hoping someone else has a better memory for
> names. Back in the 80s, 90s.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

Ever look at how many 'national championships' YMC won?


== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 3:21 pm
From: "z, fred"


curtis@the-md-russells.org wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:09:11 -0700 (PDT), Brad Anders
> <pbanders@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 12, 2:06 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Jun 12, 11:39 am, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Who is this guy?
>>>>> Brad Anders
>>>> dumbass,
>>>> he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.
>>> You know, I can google him, but I thought someone here might have some
>>> better insight into this kid, maybe someone who even rode with him and
>>> raced with him up through the cats. I'll just google.
>>>
>>> Brad Anders
>> Good short article I found on him right away. Kid is a "10 time
>> National Champion" and still fairly anonymous?
>>
>> Brad Anders
>
> Well, that was true of the kid that raced on the Eastern seaboard that
> had the parents that were UCF officials. I think he started winning
> 'national championships' as soon as he found an age grade to win in.
> Can't remember his name (or theirs) and he was only briefly really in
> the national spotlight. Hoping someone else has a better memory for
> names. Back in the 80s, 90s.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

Donnelly?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: FRAAM women's leader
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c4ce518b1d1b33ab?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 1:50 pm
From: ronaldo_jeremiah


http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/raam-update-robic-ailing-but-still-leading_120842/attachment/buatois1

-rj


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:24 pm
From: "Matt Chambers"


looks like she's going downhill, but she's in a very low gear.

maybe she just crested the climb or could be the angle at which the shot was
taken.


"ronaldo_jeremiah" <ronaldo_jeremiah@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ae6f46d1-3a19-47a9-8b95-45aa1d4bfd5f@x27g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/raam-update-robic-ailing-but-still-leading_120842/attachment/buatois1
>
> -rj

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 3:27 pm
From: Scott


On Jun 12, 2:50 pm, ronaldo_jeremiah <ronaldo_jerem...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/06/news/raam-update-robic-ailing-...
>
> -rj

Given the neck and back problems that lots of RAAM riders suffer from,
I'm surprised they'll let her use a recumbent. Seems like an unfair
advantage of sorts. Is it cheating, a moral issue, a sporting
violation, or something altogether different?


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rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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* Federal Prosecutor Assigned to Floyd Case - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bbdb2f1f5fc448b2?hl=en
* Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King - 5 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/19fa19e2fe1463b8?hl=en
* Scanuppia - 4 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b52a20dd09e4f78d?hl=en
* If your team dopes to help you win is that cheating? - 5 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72fc7b4516feed86?hl=en
* Cheap Nike Shox R4 Shoes Nike Air Force One Shoes Nike DUNK SB Shoes
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messages, 1 author
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* Mike Friedman to Vaughters: Suck it, Bro - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9678f6c3f28c2c1c?hl=en
* Completely off-topic, so don't read this - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/15e290efb4f30f95?hl=en
* UCI. Same Shit, Different Year - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/f885b1174289747a?hl=en
* Tejay Van Garderen - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/1142570f7f86762d?hl=en
* Criterium du Dauphine, stage 6 summary - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/e483256b2c2b0697?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Federal Prosecutor Assigned to Floyd Case
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bbdb2f1f5fc448b2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jun 11 2010 11:53 pm
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Jun 11, 6:09 pm, "derFah...@gmail.com" <derfah...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 11, 5:55 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > Time to pour a glass of Merlot, sit back and watch the show.
>
> If anyone orders any Merlot I'm leaving.  I'm not drinking any fucking
> Merlot.

Well played, sir.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:43 am
From: Betty


B. Lafferty wrote:
>> Time to pour a glass of Merlot, sit back and watch the show.

derFahrer@gmail.com wrote:
> If anyone orders any Merlot I'm leaving. I'm not drinking any fucking
> Merlot.

Champagne tastes and a Merlot budget.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hecklers starting to joust with the Dope King
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/19fa19e2fe1463b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 1:13 am
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Jun 9, 9:41 am, "marco" <marco_fenne...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> First, do you think doping is as deep and/or widespread in the three sports
> you mentioned above as it is in cycling? That's not a particularly
> well-defined question, so let me add: do you think it is possible to compete
> successfully in those sports without doping? Can a rider be competitive in a
> grand tour without doping? Why has cycling had more doping sanctions than
> any other sport? Is it simply because cycling has turned the spotlight on
> itself and the others haven't, or is it because the culture of pro cycling
> is more infused with drugs than those other sports? Out of the last ten
> years of Boston marathons, how many podium finishers were free of any
> against-the-rules blood manipulation? How about TdF podiums?
>
> The core of my questions is this: I think cycling at the Pro Tour level is
> dirtier than most other sports, and I think a big part of the reason is that
> the relevant doping techniques provide a substantial enough advantage that
> riders who don't partake simply can't be there to compete.
>
> Finally, I agree that in the grand scheme of things, 99.999% of people would
> be better off to keep cycling as a simple recreational hobby and not get
> hooked. Unfortunately, the romantic in me still respects and pulls for those
> riders who give it a try and commit themselves to do it cleanly.
>
> Don Quixote

Well, I don't actually think pro sports in say the US are
any cleaner than pro cycling. In fact, the dollar amounts at
stake are greater, and it's hard to imagine that the culture
and moral virtue of the people involved in US pro ball leagues
are restraining them from dipping further into the pharma.

Road cycling is an endurance sport, not a skill sport (except
for the occasional Savoldelli mad descent) and doping,
particularly doping that changes one's hematocrit, makes
a real difference. You can't change a donkey into a racehorse,
but you can sure make a racehorse faster. In many pro
sports, this isn't as obvious - drugs will make a receiver
faster or a basketball player stronger, but they won't cure
hands of stone or a poor shooting touch. (On the other hand,
a stronger player is less tired by game's end and doesn't
make skill mistakes, so ...) But there is still a huge advantage
to be gained by being faster and stronger.

The idea of cycling (or say track) as a test of who is fastest,
plus the fact that it's both an individual and a team sport, I think
means that Joe Fan (and maybe Joe Cat 1) regards doping
as a more serious violation of the state of play. This doesn't
really make sense. It's pretty obvious when you look at
recent baseball or football that, other things being roughly equal,
players with steroids will beat players without steroids. The
same is no doubt true of soccer and either steroids or EPO.

It's likely that there are some players out there good enough to
play in the big leagues without modification. But even they
are still at a disadvantage and will find it hard to be at the
very top - if you ask how many TdF podiums have doping
suspicions, it's kind of like asking what fraction of home run kings
are full of andro. It's probably larger than the fraction of
journeyman infielders.

I have sympathy for somebody like Myerson who chose to do
it his way, suffered rbr making jokes about him getting lapped
in Euro races, and may see those who did charge up and have
success as hypocrites. But really, it's not like Myerson would
be happy if he'd gone the charging route. He'd be hating
himself for it, because that's his personality. I "wish" I was
cutthroat and self-centered enough to have a more
successful academic career, but honestly, I couldn't do it,
I don't have the personality for it. That's life as a
journeyman infielder.

It's okay with me if Myerson vents about how the whole
structure of pro cycling should be torn down, but I don't see
how you'd replace it with something cleaner, just something
better organized (like FIFA). Sure, if they banned all the
old tainted coaches and DSes, that sounds great, but for
every Saiz or Pevenage you ban, someone new will pop up.

People dope even when there isn't money at stake, so
with the money, what can you do? I think the only
solutions are ones like Chung's, where you have more
frequent testing and smaller penalties that are handed out
instantly. The two-week sitdown for breaking the
50% HCT limit is a good example of this. It doesn't rid
the sport of doping. It does lessen the advantage.

Fredamateur Ben


== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 2:41 am
From: Betty


Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
> It's okay with me if Myerson vents about how the whole
> structure of pro cycling should be torn down, but I don't see
> how you'd replace it with something cleaner, just something
> better organized (like FIFA). Sure, if they banned all the
> old tainted coaches and DSes, that sounds great, but for
> every Saiz or Pevenage you ban, someone new will pop up.
>
> People dope even when there isn't money at stake, so
> with the money, what can you do? I think the only
> solutions are ones like Chung's, where you have more
> frequent testing and smaller penalties that are handed out
> instantly. The two-week sitdown for breaking the
> 50% HCT limit is a good example of this. It doesn't rid
> the sport of doping. It does lessen the advantage.

You're right, but unfortunately self righteousness and hysteria rules
just like it did in Salem (although with the expertise in microdosing
these days I'm not sure if a 50% rule would catch many potential Pantani's).


== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 6:03 am
From: Fred on a stick


On 6/12/2010 1:13 AM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:

> I "wish" I was
> cutthroat and self-centered enough to have a more
> successful academic career, but honestly, I couldn't do it,
> I don't have the personality for it. That's life as a
> journeyman infielder.

You're the better for it. Though it would have been nice to declaim at
the award presentation, "If I've seen further than others it is by
standing on the necks of graduate students."

> I think the only
> solutions are ones like Chung's, where you have more
> frequent testing and smaller penalties that are handed out
> instantly.

and to team members.

> The two-week sitdown for breaking the
> 50% HCT limit is a good example of this. It doesn't rid
> the sport of doping. It does lessen the advantage.

Rather than punish the doping behavior as a moral offense, neutralize
the advantage as a sporting violation.


== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 10:00 am
From: Frederick the Great


In article <hv00i6$pvv$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Fred on a stick <anonymous.coward@address.invalid> wrote:

> On 6/12/2010 1:13 AM, Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
>
> > I "wish" I was
> > cutthroat and self-centered enough to have a more
> > successful academic career, but honestly, I couldn't do it,
> > I don't have the personality for it. That's life as a
> > journeyman infielder.
>
> You're the better for it. Though it would have been nice to declaim at
> the award presentation, "If I've seen further than others it is by
> standing on the necks of graduate students."
>
> > I think the only
> > solutions are ones like Chung's, where you have more
> > frequent testing and smaller penalties that are handed out
> > instantly.
>
> and to team members.
>
> > The two-week sitdown for breaking the
> > 50% HCT limit is a good example of this. It doesn't rid
> > the sport of doping. It does lessen the advantage.
>
> Rather than punish the doping behavior as a moral offense, neutralize
> the advantage as a sporting violation.

I want to draw the line further.
Futbol is an endurance sport.
When FIFA begins to publicly
hand out doping sanctions, then
cycling can start.

--
Old Fritz


== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:14 am
From: Betty


Fredmaster of Brainerd wrote:
>> I "wish" I was
>> cutthroat and self-centered enough to have a more
>> successful academic career, but honestly, I couldn't do it,
>> I don't have the personality for it. That's life as a
>> journeyman infielder.

Fred on a stick wrote:
> You're the better for it. Though it would have been nice to declaim at
> the award presentation, "If I've seen further than others it is by
> standing on the necks of graduate students."

Is there any other use for graduate students ?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Scanuppia
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b52a20dd09e4f78d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 6:33 am
From: curtis@the-md-russells.org


On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:51:34 -0700, "GoneBeforeMyTime"
<Fans@EuroForums.com> wrote:

> The Scanuppia is the hardest
>longest paved section I have ever seen, either in real life here, or on the
>Internet.

The 'paving' at the top looked more like packed stone dust, which is
probably as good as paving once its been seated by some rain. It does
show some tracks.

In the U.S., someone would level that sucker so the cars wouldn't
overheat to get to the top.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...


== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 7:22 am
From: "GoneBeforeMyTime"


curtis@the-md-russells.org wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:51:34 -0700, "GoneBeforeMyTime"
> <Fans@EuroForums.com> wrote:
>
>> The Scanuppia is the hardest
>> longest paved section I have ever seen, either in real life here, or
>> on the Internet.
>
> The 'paving' at the top looked more like packed stone dust, which is
> probably as good as paving once its been seated by some rain. It does
> show some tracks.
>
> In the U.S., someone would level that sucker so the cars wouldn't
> overheat to get to the top.
>
> Curtis L. Russell
> Odenton, MD (USA)
> Just someone on two wheels...

I'm not sure that is the top. The video just cuts off, I think because of
the Youtube 10 minute limit. He could of made another part though. Try
climbing that on a road bike with your big cluster.


== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 9:44 am
From: RicodJour


On Jun 12, 9:33 am, cur...@the-md-russells.org wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:51:34 -0700, "GoneBeforeMyTime"
>
> <F...@EuroForums.com> wrote:
> > The Scanuppia is the hardest
> >longest paved section I have ever seen, either in real life here, or on the
> >Internet.
>
> The 'paving' at the top looked more like packed stone dust, which is
> probably as good as paving once its been seated by some rain. It does
> show some tracks.

I didn't see a single wheel breaking loose. Anything without a binder
would have broken loose, so it's probably soil cement where they just
mix in cement to bind the soil/gravel/sand.

R


== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:28 am
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"RicodJour" <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote in message
news:c2c8080c-2221-4bd8-92bd-23083fc4a0b4@g18g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 12, 9:33 am, cur...@the-md-russells.org wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 21:51:34 -0700, "GoneBeforeMyTime"
>
> <F...@EuroForums.com> wrote:
> > The Scanuppia is the hardest
> >longest paved section I have ever seen, either in real life here, or on
> >the
> >Internet.
>
> The 'paving' at the top looked more like packed stone dust, which is
> probably as good as paving once its been seated by some rain. It does
> show some tracks.
===========
I didn't see a single wheel breaking loose. Anything without a binder
would have broken loose, so it's probably soil cement where they just
mix in cement to bind the soil/gravel/sand.

R
==========

While true that wheels weren't slipping, I think it's also true that, by the
point we're seeing things in the video, we're looking at a very small subset
of cyclists who know what they're doing. Those not used to riding on sloppy
stuff are probably still out there trying to make it up.

"Soil cement" it might be. Haven't come across that yet, but that's the way
it looked to me.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


==============================================================================
TOPIC: If your team dopes to help you win is that cheating?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72fc7b4516feed86?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 6:38 am
From: curtis@the-md-russells.org


On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 17:36:21 -0700, "K. Fred Gauss" <none@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>2. Am I supposed to feel sorry for poor old Tyler, Floyd, etc, for being
>forced to dope against their will? I can't do it, I tried.

Do some pity microdosing first, then go for the gold. Feel sorry for
Tugboat, then widen the circle.

I'm having problems with the whole concept that Floyd ever showed any
signs of a 'will'. He's like any inner city youth that drifted into a
life of drugs and crime, except they'd popped him long ago. rbr
relevance: They woulda probably called him a dumbass as they walked
away...

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...


== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 7:51 am
From: Fred Flintstein


K. Fred Gauss wrote:
> 2. Am I supposed to feel sorry for poor old Tyler, Floyd, etc, for being
> forced to dope against their will? I can't do it, I tried.

Feel sorry for poor Jan Ullrich, who had a clean team(*)
and didn't win.

Fred Flintstein

(*) Remember that Zabel was not doping when he was winning
all those green jerseys. When he confessed it was only to
stuff before that.


== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 9:21 am
From: "Steve Freides"


i, Fred wrote:
> Interesting column in the Aspen Times by Roger Marolt where he
> basically states that Lance's teammate(s) doped to help him win at
> least four TdFs. Doesn't that constitute cheating?

I think this is one of those, "If a tree falls in the forest but no one
hears it ..." sort of things.

-S-


== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 9:50 am
From: Scott


On Jun 11, 5:51 pm, "i, Fred" <eyef...@n0spam.c0m> wrote:
> Interesting column in the Aspen Times by Roger Marolt where he basically states
> that Lance's teammate(s) doped to help him win at least four TdFs. Doesn't
> that constitute cheating?
>
> "Professional cycling in events such
> as Le Tour de France is a team sport.
> No matter how physically gifted a man
> might be, no matter how hard he trains,
> no matter how fiercely determined he
> is to succeed, he can't win a
> multistage race of Le Tour's magnitude
> (typically covering more than 2,100
> miles in just three-and-a-half weeks
> with nearly 100,000 vertical feet of
> climbing along the way) without the
> aid of an exceptionally talented team.
>
>
> i, Fred

The argument makes no sense in that it is based on a faulty premise.
There have been times when a racer wins with a mediocre, if not poor,
team. For example, it's been said that Lemond won one TdF because of
his team, once with a weak team, and once in spite of his team. And
that's only looking at his actual wins. His virtual wins are another
story.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:43 am
From: Amit Ghosh


On Jun 11, 7:51 pm, "i, Fred" <eyef...@n0spam.c0m> wrote:
> Interesting column in the Aspen Times by Roger Marolt where he basically states
> that Lance's teammate(s) doped to help him win at least four TdFs. Doesn't
> that constitute cheating?

dumbass,

the argument is an old one (also under UCI rules cycling is only a
team sport). but cheating is only what is defined in the rules. it
might not be fair but it isn't cheating if your teammate dopes.

==============================================================================
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== 1 of 1 ==
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mike Friedman to Vaughters: Suck it, Bro
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9678f6c3f28c2c1c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 8:59 am
From: Amit Ghosh


On Jun 9, 6:56 pm, DA74 <davidasto...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "Other riders that I looked up to, or management, never gave me
> positive affirmation, or took me under their wing and gave me positive
> feedback. I would get a meagre thank you for being a super-domestique.
>
> "I would do everything that I was asked and do it selflessly, giving
> everything I had, even if I didn't finish a race. And then I find out
> that I can't get a job after because I have no results to stay with
> Garmin or any other team in Europe or the US. Jelly Belly was the only
> team that actually offered me a contract."
>

he's was also the only protour rider built like gary coleman.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Completely off-topic, so don't read this
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/15e290efb4f30f95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 9:03 am
From: "Steve Freides"


curtis@the-md-russells.org wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 10:52:25 -0400, "Steve Freides" <steve@kbnj.com>
> wrote:
>
>> curtis@the-md-russells.org wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 20:03:18 -0400, "Steve Freides" <steve@kbnj.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> curtis@the-md-russells.org wrote:
>>>>> Justified is the best series on television in a long time and the
>>>>> last show was a lesson in how to conduct community and family
>>>>> relations. You have to appreciate a work ethic that says if
>>>>> shooting a person once at very close range is a good thing, you
>>>>> may as well do it twice more and be sure. I'm sure there are
>>>>> lessons for the LA situation somewhere in there, but who cares?
>>>>>
>>>>> Curtis L. Russell
>>>>> Odenton, MD (USA)
>>>>> Just someone on two wheels...
>>>>
>>>> Please, pretty please, can I read it?
>>>>
>>>> -S-
>>>>
>>> Well, no, not really. Or at least, don't let it happen again...
>>
>> I watch very little TV and have no idea what you're talking about
>> here, anyway.
>>
>> -S-
>
> No particular reason to not keep on posting...

Posting without reason is the essence of rbr, isn't it?

-S-


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:14 am
From: Betty


Steve Freides wrote:
> Posting without reason is the essence of rbr, isn't it?

Kindly refrain from baiting the bots.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: UCI. Same Shit, Different Year
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/f885b1174289747a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 9:32 am
From: Michael Press


In article <NaCdnUW706YHEY_RnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
"B. Lafferty" <bl@nowhere.com> wrote:

> On 6/11/2010 2:50 PM, K. Fred Gauss wrote:
> > Keith wrote:
> >
> >> Ahem...so does that mean McQuaid thinks that LA was doping in last
> >> year's TDF as his blood values did exactly that? Oops, forget that
> >> question, it's been "taken care of"...LA probably has another
> >> "donation" lined up for when he quits cycling for good, just that this
> >> time they'll keep the secret better.
> >>
> >
> > Serious question: What was the secret?
> >
> > I remember reading years ago that Armstrong was donating money to the
> > UCI's anti-doping program. Struck me as strange at the time. It probably
> > wasn't widely reported, but it was reported. Was there a different
> > donation that was kept secret? Or is it the amount that was kept secret?
>
> It was reported and even discussed at length here. The rbr minority
> considered it a conflict of interest; the majority did not and, in their
> wisdom, ridiculed the minority. At least Pat is now on the rbr minority
> side. :-)

When people laugh at you it
only seems to be a majority.
That is the indefinite "you."
Please do not take this to
mean that people are laughing
at you. You are far to serious
to be taken lightly.

--
Michael Press


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 10:00 am
From: "B. Lafferty"


On 6/12/2010 12:32 PM, Michael Press wrote:
> In article<NaCdnUW706YHEY_RnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> "B. Lafferty"<bl@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6/11/2010 2:50 PM, K. Fred Gauss wrote:
>>> Keith wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem...so does that mean McQuaid thinks that LA was doping in last
>>>> year's TDF as his blood values did exactly that? Oops, forget that
>>>> question, it's been "taken care of"...LA probably has another
>>>> "donation" lined up for when he quits cycling for good, just that this
>>>> time they'll keep the secret better.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Serious question: What was the secret?
>>>
>>> I remember reading years ago that Armstrong was donating money to the
>>> UCI's anti-doping program. Struck me as strange at the time. It probably
>>> wasn't widely reported, but it was reported. Was there a different
>>> donation that was kept secret? Or is it the amount that was kept secret?
>>
>> It was reported and even discussed at length here. The rbr minority
>> considered it a conflict of interest; the majority did not and, in their
>> wisdom, ridiculed the minority. At least Pat is now on the rbr minority
>> side. :-)
>
> When people laugh at you it
> only seems to be a majority.
> That is the indefinite "you."
> Please do not take this to
> mean that people are laughing
> at you. You are far to serious
> to be taken lightly.
>
Oh...............OK.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tejay Van Garderen
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/1142570f7f86762d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 10:08 am
From: Brad Anders


Who is this guy?

Brad Anders


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:39 am
From: Amit Ghosh


On Jun 12, 1:08 pm, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Who is this guy?
>
> Brad Anders

dumbass,

he's one of many kids better than taylor phinney.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Criterium du Dauphine, stage 6 summary
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/e483256b2c2b0697?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 12 2010 11:06 am
From: Bob Martin

Stage 6 : Jun 12, Crolles - Alpe-d'Huez, 151.5 km

1 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 4.31.01
2 Janez Brajkovic (Slo) Team Radioshack
3 Sylvester Szmyd (Pol) Liquigas-Doimo 0.17
4 Jerome Coppel (Fra) Saur - Sojasun 0.24
5 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 0.40
6 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Caisse d'Epargne 1.17
7 Christophe Riblon (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 1.18
8 Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez (Spa) Euskaltel - Euskadi
9 Nicolas Vogondy (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom
10 Christopher Horner (USA) Team Radioshack 1.26


Changes in GC, stage 6 compared to stage 5 :

Biggest gainers by position :
+49 David Gutierrez Palacios
+37 Anders Lund
+36 Guillaume Bonnafond
+32 Stijn Vandenbergh
+32 Samuel Sanchez Gonzalez
+31 Christophe Moreau
+29 Jurgen Roelandts
+29 Cyril Dessel
+28 Amael Moinard
+27 Stefan Denifl

Biggest losers by position :
-52 David Millar
-50 Christophe Kern
-50 Eros Capecchi
-43 Egor Silin
-40 Fredrik Kessiakoff
-31 Gorka Verdugo Marcotegui
-30 Dario Cataldo
-30 Peter Stetina
-25 Reine Taaramae
-22 Andrey Zeits
-21 Jose Alberto Benitez Roman

Biggest gainers by time :

Biggest losers by time :
-33:51 Samuel Dumoulin
-33:48 Christophe Kern
-33:48 Sebastien Minard
-33:16 Nikolai Trusov
-31:46 Aitor Perez Arrieta
-31:46 Andre Steensen
-31:46 Andreas Stauff
-31:46 Benjamin Noval Gonzalez
-31:46 Daniel Lloyd
-31:46 Daniele Bennati
-31:46 David Gutierrez Palacios

Favourites by position :
+29 Cyril Dessel
+14 Johan Van Summeren
+10 Juan Jose Cobo Acebo
+4 Jurgen Van Den Broeck
+2 Lars Ytting Bak
+1 Alberto Contador Velasco
-2 Remi Pauriol
-18 Daniel Navarro Garcia
-20 Denis Menchov
-52 David Millar

Favourites by time :
-0:40 Jurgen Van Den Broeck
-2:18 Cyril Dessel
-4:06 Remi Pauriol
-8:44 Johan Van Summeren
-9:27 Denis Menchov
-12:28 Daniel Navarro Garcia
-16:01 Ruben Plaza Molina
-24:39 Lars Ytting Bak
-24:39 Juan Jose Cobo Acebo
-24:39 David Millar

Top 3 and favourites GC standings (previous stage in parens) :
1 Janez Brajkovic 24:26:05 (unchanged)
2 Alberto Contador Velasco 1:41 (was 3rd at 1:41)
3 Tejay Van Garderen 2:41 (was 2nd at 1:15)
4 Jurgen Van Den Broeck 3:46 (was 8th at 3:06)
.....
14 Remi Pauriol 7:49 (was 12th at 3:43)
.....
24 Cyril Dessel 11:30 (was 53rd at 9:12)
.....
26 Denis Menchov 12:22 (was 6th at 2:55)
.....
37 Daniel Navarro Garcia 16:51 (was 19th at 4:23)
.....
43 Johan Van Summeren 19:39 (was 57th at 10:55)
.....
55 Ruben Plaza Molina 25:58 (was 55th at 9:57)
56 David Millar 26:35 (was 4th at 1:56)
.....
89 Lars Ytting Bak 48:36 (was 91st at 23:57)
.....
102 Juan Jose Cobo Acebo 55:38 (was 112nd at 30:59)

Top 10 on Points table with previous in parens:
1 Janez Brajkovic 87 (was 2nd with 65 points)
2 Alberto Contador Velasco 83 (was 4th with 58 points)
3 Geraint Thomas 67 (was 1st with 67 points)
4 Grega Bole 63 (was 3rd with 63 points)
5 Tejay Van Garderen 56 (was 5th with 46 points)
6 Christophe Riblon 55 (was 6th with 41 points)
7 Pierre Rolland 45 (was 8th with 38 points)
8 Nicolas Vogondy 42 (was 11th with 30 points)
9 Christophe Moreau 39 (was 19th with 24 points)
10 Jurgen Van Den Broeck 38 (was 21st with 22 points)

Top 10 on Mountains table with previous in parens:
1 Egoi Martinez De Esteban 55 (was 5th with 21 points)
2 Janez Brajkovic 33 (was 11th with 15 points)
3 Alberto Contador Velasco 32 (was 16th with 12 points)
4 Eros Capecchi 31 (was 1st with 31 points)
5 Cyril Gautier 29 (was 7th with 20 points)
6 Thibault Pinot 26 (was 2nd with 26 points)
7 Stefan Denifl 24 (was 0 points)
8 Bram Tankink 23 (was 3rd with 23 points)
9 Guillaume Bonnafond 22 (was 4th with 22 points)
10 Christophe Moreau 22 (was 17th with 12 points)

Retirements to date : Stage
Baden Cooke (Aus) Team Saxo Bank 6 <<<
Enrique Mata Cabello (Spa) Footon-Servetto 6 <<<
Juan Jose Haedo (Arg) Team Saxo Bank 6 <<<
Jurgen Van Goolen (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 6 <<<
Kevin Seeldrayers (Bel) Quick Step 6 <<<
Laurent Mangel (Fra) Saur - Sojasun 6 <<<
Manuel Antonio Leal Cardoso (Por) Footon-Servetto 6 <<<
Pierrick Fedrigo (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom 6 <<<
Staf Scheirlinckx (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 6 <<<
Tomas Vaitkus (Ltu) Team Radioshack 6 <<<
Vincent Jerome (Fra) Bbox Bouygues Telecom 6 <<<
Jacopo Guarnieri (Ita) Liquigas-Doimo 5
Roy Sentjens (Ned) Team Milram 5
Bert Grabsch (Ger) Team HTC - Columbia 4
Jean-Christophe Peraud (Fra) Omega Pharma-Lotto 4
Joaquin Novoa Menedez (Spa) Cervelo Test Team 4
Markus Eichler (Ger) Team Milram 4
Thomas Fothen (Ger) Team Milram 4
Juan Mauricio Soler Hernandez (Col) Caisse d'Epargne 3
Michel Kreder (Ned) Garmin - Transitions 3
Peter Velits (Svk) Team HTC - Columbia 3
Dennis Van Winden (Ned) Rabobank 2
Haimar Zubeldia Aguirre (Spa) Team Radioshack 2
Marco Marzano (Ita) Lampre-Farnese Vini 2
Mauro Finetto (Ita) Liquigas-Doimo 2
Paul Martens (Ger) Rabobank 2
Total retirements : 26


(This report can also be seen at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/rvmartin2)


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