Sunday, August 1, 2010

rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

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rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

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Today's topics:

* I thought I was invincible, that they wouldn't catch me. - 4 messages, 4
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c394a4045e928746?hl=en
* "Fresno Bee"? What's next, Lodi Weekly? Lompoc Shopper? - 3 messages, 3
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/5df4c780b5a21e1c?hl=en
* The 'doping levels the playing field' theory is a null argument. - 3
messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/e43058bc511313db?hl=en
* Not even the sibling he consumed in the womb can help him now - 3 messages,
2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72f6195cd4869840?hl=en
* Where will Lance be able to hide from Novitzky ? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ebfa4ac14b025ada?hl=en
* Les filles des podiums - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/94c7a76ab6de60a4?hl=en
* Another Lance Teammate Caught Doping on His Own - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/3887e93a44562907?hl=en
* Now *this* could be interesting - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ecddcecd3996f554?hl=en
* Question for Laff - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/77f5c514b645c761?hl=en
* Clasica San Sebastian - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72ba34407e563741?hl=en
* WSJ: Prosecutors Step Up Armstrong Probe - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4daf5e927c629c39?hl=en
* Liz Hatch Needs Your Help!!! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9f08004800222d08?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: I thought I was invincible, that they wouldn't catch me.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c394a4045e928746?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 2:40 pm
From: "Kurgan Gringioni"

"B. Lafferty" <bl@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:TMGdnaRTUauUDcnRnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
: On 7/31/2010 3:47 PM, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
: >
: > "B. Lafferty"<bl@nowhere.com> wrote in message
: > news:4ZKdnQRRMYMGusnRnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
: >
: > :> Dumbass -
: > :>
: > :> LANCE most likely (I say most likely because I have no first hand
: > evidence)
: > :> before and after cancer. The difference was his body changed from
the
: > chemo.
: > :> Doping alone doesn't do it. Reasons:
: > :>
: > :> 1) dopers are competing against other dopers.
: > :>
: > :> 2) climbing ability is still determined by power to weight RATIO.
Weight
: > is
: > :> equally important as power output.
: > :>
: > :> thanks,
: > :>
: > :> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
: > :>
: > : That wasn't the question. I doubt that pre-cancer Armstrong had the
EPO
: > : doping regimen down pat. No doubt his post-cancer weight loss help
: > : considerably.
: >
: >
: >
: > Dumbass -
: >
: > He was pretty awesome pre-cancer. So much so that they built US Postal
: > around a rider coming off chemo, not racing for a year. They didn't
decide
: > to make him a GT rider until he rode the Vuelta and unexpectedly got
4th. It
: > was the weight.
: >
: > If he hadn't shed that weight, he wouldn't be competitive as a Grand
Tour GC
: > rider, optimized doping or no. Remember, weight is half the equation.
Going
: > uphill, cutting 10% off bodyweight is the same as gaining 10% in power.
: > "Optimizing" a doping program isn't going to yield those results. In
1998,
: > they had the 50% hematocrit limits. Where's the 10% extra power gonna
come
: > from? It's fiction.
: >
: > thanks,
: >
: > Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
: >
: He was pretty much a one day racer pre-cancer. That 1995 placing at 80th
: in the Tour was truly awesome, Henry.


Dumbass -

You completely ignored the analysis regarding weight.

For a GT GC rider, minimizing weight is just as important as maximizing
power output.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 2:46 pm
From: "B. Lafferty"


On 8/1/2010 5:40 PM, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>
> "B. Lafferty"<bl@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:TMGdnaRTUauUDcnRnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> : On 7/31/2010 3:47 PM, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> :>
> :> "B. Lafferty"<bl@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> :> news:4ZKdnQRRMYMGusnRnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> :>
> :> :> Dumbass -
> :> :>
> :> :> LANCE most likely (I say most likely because I have no first hand
> :> evidence)
> :> :> before and after cancer. The difference was his body changed from
> the
> :> chemo.
> :> :> Doping alone doesn't do it. Reasons:
> :> :>
> :> :> 1) dopers are competing against other dopers.
> :> :>
> :> :> 2) climbing ability is still determined by power to weight RATIO.
> Weight
> :> is
> :> :> equally important as power output.
> :> :>
> :> :> thanks,
> :> :>
> :> :> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> :> :>
> :> : That wasn't the question. I doubt that pre-cancer Armstrong had the
> EPO
> :> : doping regimen down pat. No doubt his post-cancer weight loss help
> :> : considerably.
> :>
> :>
> :>
> :> Dumbass -
> :>
> :> He was pretty awesome pre-cancer. So much so that they built US Postal
> :> around a rider coming off chemo, not racing for a year. They didn't
> decide
> :> to make him a GT rider until he rode the Vuelta and unexpectedly got
> 4th. It
> :> was the weight.
> :>
> :> If he hadn't shed that weight, he wouldn't be competitive as a Grand
> Tour GC
> :> rider, optimized doping or no. Remember, weight is half the equation.
> Going
> :> uphill, cutting 10% off bodyweight is the same as gaining 10% in power.
> :> "Optimizing" a doping program isn't going to yield those results. In
> 1998,
> :> they had the 50% hematocrit limits. Where's the 10% extra power gonna
> come
> :> from? It's fiction.
> :>
> :> thanks,
> :>
> :> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> :>
> : He was pretty much a one day racer pre-cancer. That 1995 placing at 80th
> : in the Tour was truly awesome, Henry.
>
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> You completely ignored the analysis regarding weight.

No I haven't, Henry.
>
> For a GT GC rider, minimizing weight is just as important as maximizing
> power output.

And doping is of the paramount importance. Keep sharing your thoughts
and ideas with us, Henry. You're a very amusing fellow.

>
> thanks,
>
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 10:31 pm
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Aug 1, 2:46 pm, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 8/1/2010 5:40 PM, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> > "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com>  wrote in message
> >news:TMGdnaRTUauUDcnRnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> > : On 7/31/2010 3:47 PM, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> > :>
> > :>  "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com>   wrote in message
> > :>  news:4ZKdnQRRMYMGusnRnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> > :>
> > :>  :>   Dumbass -
> > :>  :>
> > :>  :>   LANCE most likely (I say most likely because I have no first hand
> > :>  evidence)
> > :>  :>   before and after cancer. The difference was his body changed from
> > the
> > :>  chemo.
> > :>  :>   Doping alone doesn't do it. Reasons:
> > :>  :>
> > :>  :>   1) dopers are competing against other dopers.
> > :>  :>
> > :>  :>   2) climbing ability is still determined by power to weight RATIO.
> > Weight
> > :>  is
> > :>  :>   equally important as power output.
> > :>  :>
> > :>  :>   thanks,
> > :>  :>
> > :>  :>   Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> > :>  :>
> > :>  : That wasn't the question.  I doubt that pre-cancer Armstrong had the
> > EPO
> > :>  : doping regimen down pat.  No doubt his post-cancer weight loss help
> > :>  : considerably.
> > :>
> > :>
> > :>
> > :>  Dumbass -
> > :>
> > :>  He was pretty awesome pre-cancer. So much so that they built US Postal
> > :>  around a rider coming off chemo, not racing for a year. They didn't
> > decide
> > :>  to make him a GT rider until he rode the Vuelta and unexpectedly got
> > 4th. It
> > :>  was the weight.
> > :>
> > :>  If he hadn't shed that weight, he wouldn't be competitive as a Grand
> > Tour GC
> > :>  rider, optimized doping or no. Remember, weight is half the equation.
> > Going
> > :>  uphill, cutting 10% off bodyweight is the same as gaining 10% in power.
> > :>  "Optimizing" a doping program isn't going to yield those results. In
> > 1998,
> > :>  they had the 50% hematocrit limits. Where's the 10% extra power gonna
> > come
> > :>  from? It's fiction.
> > :>
> > :>  thanks,
> > :>
> > :>  Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
> > :>
> > : He was pretty much a one day racer pre-cancer. That 1995 placing at 80th
> > : in the Tour was truly awesome, Henry.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > You completely ignored the analysis regarding weight.
>
> No I haven't, Henry.
>
>
>
> > For a GT GC rider, minimizing weight is just as important as maximizing
> > power output.
>
> And doping is of the paramount importance.  Keep sharing your thoughts
> and ideas with us, Henry.  You're a very amusing fellow.

Actually, you don't know that. You don't have the
numbers to show it.

My guess is that doping at less than say the 60% HCT
level makes no more than a 10% improvement in power,
and probably less.
I'm basing this, for example, on the much belabored
examples of Tour climbs like times up Alpe d'Huez.
A putative 10% bonus in power of course is a huge
advantage in a sport where the winner is decided by
fractions of a percent - 90 hours racing around France
and the race decided by less than 5 minutes on GC, or
a sprint decided by less than a bike length at the end
of a 5 hour classic.

However, a 10 percent improvement in climbing
could also be made by a 165 lb fattie who drops to
150 lbs. That seems like a lot, and I forget how much
weight LANCE supposedly dropped, but it was of
that order - maybe something like 180 to 165 lb,
though. There are other examples of riders who
dropped a bunch of weight and became decent
climbers, if not GC contenders.

There's really no way to know how much of LANCE's
success was due to the changes in his body and
how much to changes in his doctors, but using
his 80th place at the age of 23 proves nothing.
Many future GC riders were nowhere in their
first couple of Tours. Further, if a rider is not
riding for a top 20 GC place, he has no reason to
expend extra effort and may lose significant time
just by conserving energy and riding in the gruppetto.
In other words, a rider who spent energy to place
30th rather than 80th is not a smart rider (unless he
has to do it to help in the team GC competition).

Fredmaster Ben


== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 10:48 pm
From: "H. Fred Kveck"


In article <af06d698-219f-46ce-a3b8-b0f019441e9e@v32g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjweiner@gmail.com> wrote:

> > And doping is of the paramount importance.  Keep sharing your thoughts
> > and ideas with us, Henry.  You're a very amusing fellow.
>
> Actually, you don't know that. You don't have the
> numbers to show it.
>
> My guess is that doping at less than say the 60% HCT
> level makes no more than a 10% improvement in power,
> and probably less.
> I'm basing this, for example, on the much belabored
> examples of Tour climbs like times up Alpe d'Huez.
> A putative 10% bonus in power of course is a huge
> advantage in a sport where the winner is decided by
> fractions of a percent - 90 hours racing around France
> and the race decided by less than 5 minutes on GC, or
> a sprint decided by less than a bike length at the end
> of a 5 hour classic.
>
> However, a 10 percent improvement in climbing
> could also be made by a 165 lb fattie who drops to
> 150 lbs. That seems like a lot, and I forget how much
> weight LANCE supposedly dropped, but it was of
> that order - maybe something like 180 to 165 lb,
> though. There are other examples of riders who
> dropped a bunch of weight and became decent
> climbers, if not GC contenders.
>
> There's really no way to know how much of LANCE's
> success was due to the changes in his body and
> how much to changes in his doctors, but using
> his 80th place at the age of 23 proves nothing.
> Many future GC riders were nowhere in their
> first couple of Tours. Further, if a rider is not
> riding for a top 20 GC place, he has no reason to
> expend extra effort and may lose significant time
> just by conserving energy and riding in the gruppetto.
> In other words, a rider who spent energy to place
> 30th rather than 80th is not a smart rider (unless he
> has to do it to help in the team GC competition).

Additionally, one needs to remember that LANCE wasn't riding the season the same
way he did later - with the singular focus on the TdF. Taking that into account in
addition to what you say about not bothering to waste energy trying to move up to a
higher unimportant finishing position, there's ample reason to not take that 80th
place as a particularly good indicator of LA's actual strength. But I doubt any of
that will matter much to Brian. I suspect he, like Keith, will still think that LA
"stole" multiple Tours from that nice clean Mr. Ullrich.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: "Fresno Bee"? What's next, Lodi Weekly? Lompoc Shopper?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/5df4c780b5a21e1c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 2:44 pm
From: "B. Lafferty"


On 8/1/2010 5:35 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>>> "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:-O2dnWd2TuwrxcnRnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>> On 7/31/2010 12:03 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:n6adndcE0NopvsnRnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/31/2010 1:59 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>> news:pLSdnWK0PsNY6c7RnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/07/30/2024459/landis-rides-in-catskills...
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I'm thinking, who would read the Fresno Bee except someone
>>>>>>>>>>> living in
>>>>>>>>>>> Fresno? Of course, the answer is nobody. So why would someone
>>>>>>>>>>> use a
>>>>>>>>>>> wire
>>>>>>>>>>> story from the Fresno Bee as a "news" source? The only thing
>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>> come
>>>>>>>>>>> up with is that that somebody has a wire service "scraper"
>>>>>>>>>>> programmed to
>>>>>>>>>>> look for certain keywords in articles and collect those
>>>>>>>>>>> articles.
>>>>>>>>>>> Basically you program a robot to do your work for you. And
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> interesting thing about this is, instead of research, you can
>>>>>>>>>>> carefully
>>>>>>>>>>> choose your keywords so that you get results that support
>>>>>>>>>>> what you
>>>>>>>>>>> already believe.
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The real beauty to this is that you avoid being exposed to
>>>>>>>>>>> things you
>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to see or disagree with. You can construct your
>>>>>>>>>>> own safe
>>>>>>>>>>> world where everything supports what you already believe, and
>>>>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>>>>>> tell the world look, I'm right, here's proof I found on the
>>>>>>>>>>> 'net!
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>>>>>>>>>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38495011/ns/sports/
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How is this a response to my post? What is your intent in
>>>>>>>>> posting a link
>>>>>>>>> to the identical story in a different website? How does that
>>>>>>>>> respond to
>>>>>>>>> my point about scraping for news one agrees with? Proof that
>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>> scraper works?
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>>>>>>>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>>>>>>>> www.ChainReaction.com
>>>>>>>>> Redwood City& Los Altos, CA USA
>>>>
>>>>>>>> I took your comment to mean that the story wasn't worth being
>>>>>>>> covered
>>>>>>>> by larger news outlets. But of course, it is.
>>>>
>>>>>>> The worst thing about some of your "answers" is that I can see
>>>>>>> myself in
>>>>>>> them, back in high school and college. If I didn't know the
>>>>>>> answer to
>>>>>>> the question on a test, I'd substitute an answer for a question
>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>> did know, hoping that somebody would think, oh, perhaps the
>>>>>>> question
>>>>>>> wasn't clear enough, I'll let that one slide.
>>>>
>>>>>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>>>>>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>>>>>> www.ChainReaction.com
>>>>>>> Redwood City& Los Altos, CA USA
>>>>
>>>>>> Nice straw man, Mike. The bottom line is that it appears public
>>>>>> perception of Landis changing for the good. People are asking
>>>>>> more and
>>>>>> more questions about how Lance could have beaten all those dopers
>>>>>> riding
>>>>>> clean. It's Lance and his mouthpieces, Herman and Daly, who are
>>>>>> looking
>>>>>> unbelievable.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>
>>>>> The same way some previous champions have beaten the rest. Did you
>>>>> ever hear of normal distribution and outliers?
>>>>
>>>> Yes. That's been discussed here over the years. Believe in the
>>>> tooth
>>>> fairy if you choose to.
>>>
>>> It isn't about what I believe in. Its about having or not having
>>> irrefutable proof.
>>
>> It's about having proof by a preponderance of the evidence(civil) or
>> beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal). Here at rbr, preponderance is
>> the standard as far as I'm concerned and for me that threshold has
>> been more than met. If Armstong is ever charged with a crime and goes
>> to trial, the standard of proof will be higher and it will be for a
>> jury to decide, unless he waives his right to a jury trial in favor
>> ofa bench trial.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> While a doper may achieve exceptional performance, it is in no
>>>>> shape
>>>>> or form one iota of proof of doping. From what we know so far
>>>>> publicly, if it came to a jury trial, all Lance needs is one
>>>>> unbiased
>>>>> juror with an IQ> 100.
>>>>
>>>> All it will ever come to in a criminal trial is how the jury votes.
>>>> It
>>>> could be not guilty, guilty or hung jury/mis-trial. And your point
>>>> was?
>>>>
>>>
>>> "how Lance could have beaten all those dopers riding
>>> clean"...........not proof of doping to an unbiased juror.
>>
>> It is, in all probability, something that a prosecutor may try to use
>> in an opening statement or summation to the jury. Whether it would
>> get by the judge is a question that may or may not be answered.
>
> As an opening statement, it would be a big mistake in my humble opinion,
> because it's so easy to refute. Unless physical evidence turns up to
> corroborate the stories, the "Lance won because he doped" line goes for
> him, not against him, when you can show evidence of how many others
> doped and were caught.... likely doping to a much greater degree than
> Lance is alleged to have doped. And they didn't win. Unless you buy into
> the idea that Lance had a monopoly on effective& safe (won't show up in
> a test) doping, and what would make Lance so special that way?
>
> As a summation, if that could be snuck in without being countered, it
> would be a good play for the prosecution. But not knowing how these
> things work, I don't know if that's possible. And I would think a good
> defense attorney would try to pre-empt such a play.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>
I think it will play best in the summation. You'd be amazed what both
sides can get away with summing up. I recall that there was once a
prosecutor in NY State who told the jury the only reason the defendant
was in the court to be judged by them was because the police couldn't
shoot straight. That conviction was reversed on appeal.


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:37 pm
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"B. Lafferty" <bl@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:JN6dnS1v_rgld8jRnZ2dnUVZ_sCdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> On 8/1/2010 5:35 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>>>> "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:-O2dnWd2TuwrxcnRnZ2dnUVZ_gKdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>> On 7/31/2010 12:03 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:n6adndcE0NopvsnRnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/31/2010 1:59 AM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:pLSdnWK0PsNY6c7RnZ2dnUVZ_t-dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fresnobee.com/2010/07/30/2024459/landis-rides-in-catskills...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> So I'm thinking, who would read the Fresno Bee except
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> living in
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fresno? Of course, the answer is nobody. So why would
>>>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>>>> use a
>>>>>>>>>>>> wire
>>>>>>>>>>>> story from the Fresno Bee as a "news" source? The only
>>>>>>>>>>>> thing
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can
>>>>>>>>>>>> come
>>>>>>>>>>>> up with is that that somebody has a wire service "scraper"
>>>>>>>>>>>> programmed to
>>>>>>>>>>>> look for certain keywords in articles and collect those
>>>>>>>>>>>> articles.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Basically you program a robot to do your work for you. And
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting thing about this is, instead of research, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>>> carefully
>>>>>>>>>>>> choose your keywords so that you get results that support
>>>>>>>>>>>> what you
>>>>>>>>>>>> already believe.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The real beauty to this is that you avoid being exposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>> things you
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't want to see or disagree with. You can construct your
>>>>>>>>>>>> own safe
>>>>>>>>>>>> world where everything supports what you already believe,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> you can
>>>>>>>>>>>> tell the world look, I'm right, here's proof I found on the
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'net!
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>>>>>>>>>>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38495011/ns/sports/
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How is this a response to my post? What is your intent in
>>>>>>>>>> posting a link
>>>>>>>>>> to the identical story in a different website? How does that
>>>>>>>>>> respond to
>>>>>>>>>> my point about scraping for news one agrees with? Proof that
>>>>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>>>>> scraper works?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>>>>>>>>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>>>>>>>>> www.ChainReaction.com
>>>>>>>>>> Redwood City& Los Altos, CA USA
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I took your comment to mean that the story wasn't worth being
>>>>>>>>> covered
>>>>>>>>> by larger news outlets. But of course, it is.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The worst thing about some of your "answers" is that I can see
>>>>>>>> myself in
>>>>>>>> them, back in high school and college. If I didn't know the
>>>>>>>> answer to
>>>>>>>> the question on a test, I'd substitute an answer for a question
>>>>>>>> that I
>>>>>>>> did know, hoping that somebody would think, oh, perhaps the
>>>>>>>> question
>>>>>>>> wasn't clear enough, I'll let that one slide.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>>>>>>>> Chain Reaction Bicycles
>>>>>>>> www.ChainReaction.com
>>>>>>>> Redwood City& Los Altos, CA USA
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice straw man, Mike. The bottom line is that it appears public
>>>>>>> perception of Landis changing for the good. People are asking
>>>>>>> more and
>>>>>>> more questions about how Lance could have beaten all those
>>>>>>> dopers
>>>>>>> riding
>>>>>>> clean. It's Lance and his mouthpieces, Herman and Daly, who are
>>>>>>> looking
>>>>>>> unbelievable.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>>> The same way some previous champions have beaten the rest. Did
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> ever hear of normal distribution and outliers?
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes. That's been discussed here over the years. Believe in the
>>>>> tooth
>>>>> fairy if you choose to.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't about what I believe in. Its about having or not having
>>>> irrefutable proof.
>>>
>>> It's about having proof by a preponderance of the evidence(civil) or
>>> beyond a reasonable doubt (criminal). Here at rbr, preponderance is
>>> the standard as far as I'm concerned and for me that threshold has
>>> been more than met. If Armstong is ever charged with a crime and
>>> goes
>>> to trial, the standard of proof will be higher and it will be for a
>>> jury to decide, unless he waives his right to a jury trial in favor
>>> ofa bench trial.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While a doper may achieve exceptional performance, it is in no
>>>>>> shape
>>>>>> or form one iota of proof of doping. From what we know so far
>>>>>> publicly, if it came to a jury trial, all Lance needs is one
>>>>>> unbiased
>>>>>> juror with an IQ> 100.
>>>>>
>>>>> All it will ever come to in a criminal trial is how the jury
>>>>> votes.
>>>>> It
>>>>> could be not guilty, guilty or hung jury/mis-trial. And your
>>>>> point
>>>>> was?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "how Lance could have beaten all those dopers riding
>>>> clean"...........not proof of doping to an unbiased juror.
>>>
>>> It is, in all probability, something that a prosecutor may try to
>>> use
>>> in an opening statement or summation to the jury. Whether it would
>>> get by the judge is a question that may or may not be answered.
>>
>> As an opening statement, it would be a big mistake in my humble
>> opinion,
>> because it's so easy to refute. Unless physical evidence turns up to
>> corroborate the stories, the "Lance won because he doped" line goes
>> for
>> him, not against him, when you can show evidence of how many others
>> doped and were caught.... likely doping to a much greater degree than
>> Lance is alleged to have doped. And they didn't win. Unless you buy
>> into
>> the idea that Lance had a monopoly on effective& safe (won't show up
>> in
>> a test) doping, and what would make Lance so special that way?
>>
>> As a summation, if that could be snuck in without being countered, it
>> would be a good play for the prosecution. But not knowing how these
>> things work, I don't know if that's possible. And I would think a
>> good
>> defense attorney would try to pre-empt such a play.
>>
>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>>
>>
> I think it will play best in the summation. You'd be amazed what both
> sides can get away with summing up. I recall that there was once a
> prosecutor in NY State who told the jury the only reason the defendant
> was in the court to be judged by them was because the police couldn't
> shoot straight. That conviction was reversed on appeal.

It's not the judge's job to set the jury straight on that sort of thing?
You don't see that on TV or the movies, so I don't know, but can you
really get away with murder (perhaps literally in some cases) during the
summation and the only remedy is on appeal? The prosecutor or defense
attorney can't object? The judge has to stay silent?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 10:56 pm
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Aug 1, 2:44 pm, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 8/1/2010 5:35 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> >>> "how Lance could have beaten all those dopers riding
> >>> clean"...........not proof of doping to an unbiased juror.
>
> >> It is, in all probability, something that a prosecutor may try to use
> >> in an opening statement or summation to the jury.  Whether it would
> >> get by the judge is a question that may or may not be answered.
>
> > As an opening statement, it would be a big mistake in my humble opinion,
> > because it's so easy to refute. Unless physical evidence turns up to
> > corroborate the stories, the "Lance won because he doped" line goes for
> > him, not against him, when you can show evidence of how many others
> > doped and were caught.... likely doping to a much greater degree than
> > Lance is alleged to have doped. And they didn't win. Unless you buy into
> > the idea that Lance had a monopoly on effective&  safe (won't show up in
> > a test) doping, and what would make Lance so special that way?
>
> > As a summation, if that could be snuck in without being countered, it
> > would be a good play for the prosecution. But not knowing how these
> > things work, I don't know if that's possible. And I would think a good
> > defense attorney would try to pre-empt such a play.
>
> > --Mike--     Chain Reaction Bicycles
> >www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
> I think it will play best in the summation.  You'd be amazed what both
> sides can get away with summing up.  I recall that there was once a
> prosecutor in NY State who told the jury the only reason the defendant
> was in the court to be judged by them was because the police couldn't
> shoot straight.  That conviction was reversed on appeal.

Dumbasses,

This is idiotic because as you both know, doping
to win the Tour de France is not a crime and neither
Armstrong nor anyone else will be charged with
it in a US court, so proving that he doped to win the
Tour is secondary to any possible judicial proceeding.

If anyone gets charged it is going
to be on some derivative charge, like distributing
controlled substances, fraud in team accounting
(laundering bikes to buy dope, etc) or this theory
of defrauding the sponsor by turning in doped
performances (which I am skeptical is actually
going to lead to a charge without some kind of hard
evidence like bookkeeping irregularities).

On such charges, raising hypotheticals like whether
LANCE had to dope to beat a bunch of dirty-dog
Euro dopers is secondary and is likely to confuse
the jury (if anything, spending time detailing how
accepted doping is in pro cycling might arouse
sympathy for the defendant, and defang the
defrauding-the-sponsor charge). So I don't think a
smart prosecutor is going to ramble off on that
tangent during opening or summation.

Fredmaster Ben


==============================================================================
TOPIC: The 'doping levels the playing field' theory is a null argument.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/e43058bc511313db?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 2:56 pm
From: "Kurgan Gringioni"

"Anton Berlin" <truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:00174a68-70d3-4716-aa4d-cbc678fb7dbc@g21g2000prn.googlegroups.com...

Phil it is science. You throw 10,000 athletes into a doping
experiment (called professional cycling) and you're going to end up
with one athlete - strictly due to the size of the experiment that can
assimilate, tolerate and benefit from dope better that the rest of
them.

<snip>

Dumbass -

IMO, your theory's premise is flawed.

If an athlete's body can't handle a small amount of drugs, then they're not
going to make it even if the peloton was completely clean. Bodies that
fragile can't handle big training loads necessary to be at the top. One of
the most overlooked aspects of natural talent is a rider's ability to
recover day to day.

I had some collegiate riders who looked like they were gonna be rock stars,
but couldn't handle six hour rides without their immune system taking a big
dive. They never advanced that far. Conversely, there were some guys who
seemed like they were going to be decent but ended up being really good
because they were able to do heavy training (lotta hours) and recover. They
were all clean. I'll bet that if drugs were thrown into the mix, the outcome
would've been the same - the guys who had the solid constitution would still
turn out better.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:39 pm
From: Michael Press


In article
<eac24123-271b-40d5-bbd6-a5b9ab8ebbad@r10g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>,
Anton Berlin <truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Bernard Thévenet won the 1975 and 1977 Tour de France editions by
> using cortisone. "I was doped with cortisone for three years and there
> were many like me," he said.[30] The experience had ruined his health,
> he said.

By 1975 corticosteroids were well known health risks
when taken regularly; particularly by an otherwise
healthy person. Taken by an unwell person the benefit
can make the risk worthwhile.

Cyclists need the best medical advice available,
and people should not interfere with the patient-physician
relationship.

--
Michael Press


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:36 pm
From: "K. Fred Gauss"


Mark J. wrote:
> RicodJour wrote:
>> On Aug 1, 12:20 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> If 7 Tour wins during the era of doping isn't moving off the bell
>>> curve - then what is? I submit that Lance was just more tolerant of
>>> these chemicals.
>>
>> Bell curves aren't normal,
>
> Not /relevant/, I could accept, at a stretch, when talking about the
> exceptional. Not /normal/? No, sorry.
>
> Mark J.
> Mathematical terminology police

Yeah, that was funny in a "circles aren't round" or "sky isn't up" kind
of way.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Not even the sibling he consumed in the womb can help him now
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72f6195cd4869840?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 3:08 pm
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"Anton Berlin" <truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:cc0a798d-7a95-4264-ac62-0d6eb0e8070e@x18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> During his grand jury testimony, Hamilton will be alone in a room with
> at least one prosecutor, up to 23 grand jurors, and a court reporter.
> His attorney will have to wait outside, and no judge will be present.
> By law, neither the prosecutors nor the jurors may even acknowledge
> publicly that the investigation is taking place before issuing an
> indictment.
>
> Read more:
> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2010/08/01/2010-08-01_probe_looks_under_rock.html?page=1#ixzz0vNVIaqex

Tyler may be alone in the room, but he's allowed to have an attorney
present outside the courtroom and may interrupt the proceedings and
consult with that attorney, if I understand things correctly. The idea
that someone can be separated from all elements of comfort and made to
sweat it out in hopes of getting them to crack is generally a bit of a
stretch. You can be made to look guilty by choosing not to incriminate
yourself, but you (or Tyler in this case) are not the subject of the
grand jury. The degree to which immunity is relevant depends upon what
the person testifying might have as a liability (what they can go after
criminally) and I doubt there's all that much there for Tyler.

But it's good drama & fun concocting all these scary but
probably-not-relevant scenarios!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:08 pm
From: "B. Lafferty"


On 8/1/2010 6:08 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> "Anton Berlin"<truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:cc0a798d-7a95-4264-ac62-0d6eb0e8070e@x18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>> During his grand jury testimony, Hamilton will be alone in a room with
>> at least one prosecutor, up to 23 grand jurors, and a court reporter.
>> His attorney will have to wait outside, and no judge will be present.
>> By law, neither the prosecutors nor the jurors may even acknowledge
>> publicly that the investigation is taking place before issuing an
>> indictment.
>>
>> Read more:
>> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2010/08/01/2010-08-01_probe_looks_under_rock.html?page=1#ixzz0vNVIaqex
>
> Tyler may be alone in the room, but he's allowed to have an attorney
> present outside the courtroom and may interrupt the proceedings and
> consult with that attorney, if I understand things correctly.

True. as many times as you need to consult, you can.


>The idea
> that someone can be separated from all elements of comfort and made to
> sweat it out in hopes of getting them to crack is generally a bit of a
> stretch. You can be made to look guilty by choosing not to incriminate
> yourself, but you (or Tyler in this case) are not the subject of the
> grand jury.

Tyler may be the subject or target of the grand jury. We don't know
that. I suspect his attorney has worked out favorable terms for his
truthful testimony.

> The degree to which immunity is relevant depends upon what
> the person testifying might have as a liability (what they can go after
> criminally) and I doubt there's all that much there for Tyler.

That immunity is only for his own statements that might incriminate him.
Once granted use or transactional immunity, he has to answer. His
biggest problem, unless there is more that we don't know, will be
liability for perjury during his sworn testimony in the CAS hearing.
>
> But it's good drama& fun concocting all these scary but
> probably-not-relevant scenarios!

No drama at all. The proceeding is secret and Tyler can't say anything
about what was asked and how he answered, except to his attorney.
>
> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com
>
>

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:33 pm
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"B. Lafferty" <bl@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:95ednYzRzK3yY8jRnZ2dnUVZ_uSdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> On 8/1/2010 6:08 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>> "Anton Berlin"<truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:cc0a798d-7a95-4264-ac62-0d6eb0e8070e@x18g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
>>> During his grand jury testimony, Hamilton will be alone in a room
>>> with
>>> at least one prosecutor, up to 23 grand jurors, and a court
>>> reporter.
>>> His attorney will have to wait outside, and no judge will be
>>> present.
>>> By law, neither the prosecutors nor the jurors may even acknowledge
>>> publicly that the investigation is taking place before issuing an
>>> indictment.
>>>
>>> Read more:
>>> http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2010/08/01/2010-08-01_probe_looks_under_rock.html?page=1#ixzz0vNVIaqex
>>
>> Tyler may be alone in the room, but he's allowed to have an attorney
>> present outside the courtroom and may interrupt the proceedings and
>> consult with that attorney, if I understand things correctly.
>
> True. as many times as you need to consult, you can.
>
>
>>The idea
>> that someone can be separated from all elements of comfort and made
>> to
>> sweat it out in hopes of getting them to crack is generally a bit of
>> a
>> stretch. You can be made to look guilty by choosing not to
>> incriminate
>> yourself, but you (or Tyler in this case) are not the subject of the
>> grand jury.
>
> Tyler may be the subject or target of the grand jury. We don't know
> that. I suspect his attorney has worked out favorable terms for his
> truthful testimony.

So how many different subjects or targets do you think there are? How
many were there in BALCO? I can't see a Grand Jury having a whole lot of
interest in somebody they perceive as a nobody. This case reaches back
quite some ways, and without star power (Lance) I don't see how they're
going to get much interest out of it from a Grand Jury. They're just
people, y'know?

>> The degree to which immunity is relevant depends upon what
>> the person testifying might have as a liability (what they can go
>> after
>> criminally) and I doubt there's all that much there for Tyler.
>
> That immunity is only for his own statements that might incriminate
> him. Once granted use or transactional immunity, he has to answer. His
> biggest problem, unless there is more that we don't know, will be
> liability for perjury during his sworn testimony in the CAS hearing.

But I seriously doubt Tyler has anything to lose by not recollecting.
Seriously, he's likely only to perjure himself in some way that could
come back to him, even with immunity. What does he have to gain from
testifying (remembering)?

>> But it's good drama& fun concocting all these scary but
>> probably-not-relevant scenarios!
>
> No drama at all. The proceeding is secret and Tyler can't say anything
> about what was asked and how he answered, except to his attorney.

I meant drama on RBR. Was I really that obtuse?

>> --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
>> www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Where will Lance be able to hide from Novitzky ?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ebfa4ac14b025ada?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:15 pm
From: --D-y


On Aug 1, 1:15 pm, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 8/1/2010 2:00 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:> Takes down a 7 time winner...
>
> > Novitzky, who was with the Internal Revenue Service in 2003 when he
> > uncovered the BALCO doping ring and in 2006 when he disrupted the
> > steroid distribution network Kirk Radomski set up in clubhouses across
> > Major League Baseball, has demonstrated an uncanny ability to build a
> > blockbuster criminal case by seizing on the relatively minor
> > transgressions of small-fry athletes. Take, for example, the shipment
> > of human growth hormone to journeyman pitcher Jason Grimsley that
> > ultimately led to the undoing of seven-time Cy Young Award winner
> > Roger Clemens.
>
> > Read more:http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2010/08/01/2010-08-01_p...
>
> In a country that has no extradition treaty with the US.

Predictions? Or has all of your research been a little one-sided?
--D-y


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:27 pm
From: "B. Lafferty"


On 8/1/2010 7:15 PM, --D-y wrote:
> On Aug 1, 1:15 pm, "B. Lafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 8/1/2010 2:00 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:> Takes down a 7 time winner...
>>
>>> Novitzky, who was with the Internal Revenue Service in 2003 when he
>>> uncovered the BALCO doping ring and in 2006 when he disrupted the
>>> steroid distribution network Kirk Radomski set up in clubhouses across
>>> Major League Baseball, has demonstrated an uncanny ability to build a
>>> blockbuster criminal case by seizing on the relatively minor
>>> transgressions of small-fry athletes. Take, for example, the shipment
>>> of human growth hormone to journeyman pitcher Jason Grimsley that
>>> ultimately led to the undoing of seven-time Cy Young Award winner
>>> Roger Clemens.
>>
>>> Read more:http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2010/08/01/2010-08-01_p...
>>
>> In a country that has no extradition treaty with the US.
>
> Predictions? Or has all of your research been a little one-sided?
> --D-y
No predictions. A list of such countries is readily available from the
US State Department. Carry on.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Les filles des podiums
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/94c7a76ab6de60a4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:48 pm
From: Frederick the Great


In article
<71ce973f-b8dd-4298-93fc-2eb58425d7f8@f20g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
Superfly TNT <superfly-tnt@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Aug 1, 7:11 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Check out # 6 - nothing says "My rich daddy is in tour management"
> > more
> >
> > http://www.lequipemag.fr/EquipeMag/En_Images/PORTFOLIO_les-reines-des...
> >
> > I suppose this also explains why french birth rates are so low.
>
> .
> .
> .
> .
>
> Julie Blanc from last year's Tour was the best...
>
> http://21virages.free.fr/blog/public/Hotesses/2009/2009_grimpeur_julie_2.jpg

I wonder what happens with the dresses.

--
Old Fritz

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Another Lance Teammate Caught Doping on His Own
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/3887e93a44562907?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:12 pm
From: drmofe


On Aug 2, 3:44 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Li Fuyu=Clenbuterol

Clenbuterol? In THIS century? Come ON!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Now *this* could be interesting
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ecddcecd3996f554?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:55 pm
From: Plano Dude


...according to Politiken.dk, things might not be so cut and dry for
the Luxembourg team. New rumors have it that it might take until 2012
to get the team off the ground.

Team director, Kim Andersen, is keeping quiet about the status of the
team until the crucial open season demarcation point of September 1st.

"There are so many rumors running at the moment that it is almost
impossible to keep up. There is nothing to suggest that we won't be
able to race. I will admit though, that time does pass very quickly.
That is all I have to say about the situation right now. We have
chosen not to make any comments on the progress of the team - there
will be no concrete announcements from our side until September 1st."

While Riis looks more and more likely to pick up the services of
Alberto Contador in 2011, the direction of the Schlecks remains
somewhat dim. Media in Luxembourg are indicating that Lance
Armstrong's RadioShack team has thrown its hat in the ring for the
services of the Schlecks next season. If the project in Luxembourg
doesn't get going soon enough, it would seem a distinct possibility.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5098/Cadre-of-strong-Germans-linked-to-new-Luxembourg-team-for-2011.aspx


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 9:25 pm
From: CowPunk


On Aug 1, 6:55 pm, Plano Dude <tx.wastel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...according to Politiken.dk, things might not be so cut and dry for
> the Luxembourg team. New rumors have it that it might take until 2012
It appears that the Schlecks are as bad at career tactics as they are
with racing tactics.

You have to wonder what they learned after racing for Riis all these
years?

> "There are so many rumors running at the moment that it is almost
> impossible to keep up. There is nothing to suggest that we won't be
> able to race. I will admit though, that time does pass very quickly.
> That is all I have to say about the situation right now. We have
> chosen not to make any comments on the progress of the team - there
> will be no concrete announcements from our side until September 1st."
>
> While Riis looks more and more likely to pick up the services of
> Alberto Contador in 2011, the direction of the Schlecks remains
> somewhat dim. Media in Luxembourg are indicating that Lance
> Armstrong's RadioShack team has thrown its hat in the ring for the
> services of the Schlecks next season. If the project in Luxembourg
> doesn't get going soon enough, it would seem a distinct possibility.
>
> http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5098/Cadre-of-strong-Germans-linked...


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Question for Laff
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/77f5c514b645c761?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 6:14 pm
From: Fred Flintstein


You've been very generous with your interpretation of
the legal events surrounding Mr Armstrong and the Novitzky
investigation. I'm just curious about something.

Are you actually licensed to practice law anywhere?

Fred Flintstein


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 9:05 pm
From: DirtRoadie


On Aug 1, 7:14 pm, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net>
wrote:
> You've been very generous with your interpretation of
> the legal events surrounding Mr Armstrong and the Novitzky
> investigation. I'm just curious about something.
>
> Are you actually licensed to practice law anywhere?

He only claims to have the "Tee shirt"
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/39870e603c64a407?hl=en

DR

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Clasica San Sebastian
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/72ba34407e563741?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 7:31 pm
From: Stephen


Haven't seen any discussion of the Clasica San Sebastian that was held
this weekend. For those that haven't seen it or missed it, you might
want to try to find a replay of it. Beautiful scenery, the teams
brought many of the big name cyclists whom they brought to the Tour de
France, and it was an exciting race.

Anyone get a chance to watch it?


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 7:31 pm
From: Stephen


Haven't seen any discussion of the Clasica San Sebastian that was held
this weekend. For those that haven't seen it or missed it, you might
want to try to find a replay of it. Beautiful scenery, the teams
brought many of the big name cyclists whom they brought to the Tour de
France, and it was an exciting race.

Anyone get a chance to watch it?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WSJ: Prosecutors Step Up Armstrong Probe
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4daf5e927c629c39?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 9:08 pm
From: Randall


On Jul 27, 11:24 am, LawBoy01 <phi...@pwm-law.com> wrote:
> On Jul 27, 1:15 pm, "Brian Laughingstock. Lafferty" <b...@dipshit.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Mr. Lawyer Philsy, the feds are going to have much more than SCA
> > Promotions had.  That's the result of criminal subpoena power and search
> > warrants.  Your fantasy is on the way to its end.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Mr. Laughingstock,

I can see the possibility of a grand jury indictment for Lance, but a
conviction is all together another matter and much harder.

> Oh wait, you mean SCA and Trek documents?  Whatever.  You and I both
> know that if a conviction comes it will be through credible
> coroboration of Landis' claims.  Do you agree or disagree with that?
>
> -Mr. Lawyer Philsy


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Liz Hatch Needs Your Help!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/9f08004800222d08?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 9:13 pm
From: TheCoz


On Aug 1, 2:01 pm, Superfly TNT <superfly-...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> .
> .
> .
>
> https://twitter.com/Liz_Hatch/status/20057033452
> .
> .
> .
>
> Given all her success on the women's professional road scene, I'm 100%
> positive that the corporate sponsors will be lining up to give Liz
> Hatch as many Euros as possible to complete her European summer
> vacation.
>
> .
> .
> .

Pro Female Mud Wrestler
Coz


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alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets - 26 new messages in 9 topics - digest

Buzz It
alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets?hl=en

alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* RIP:The Assassin - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/361328ec1d70a0fe?hl=en
* OT.VATICAN & ISRAEL = a Satanic Union ? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1d35581c7db9057b?hl=en
* well that was fast - 8 messages, 6 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/ff37372be879113b?hl=en
* WhatIfSports NFL predictions - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/acdb52eb595c9cb4?hl=en
* OT - News Readers - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/d568e01a0558fab0?hl=en
* Mark Brunell Signed - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/8124adfddfbb3e38?hl=en
* Coles a Jet for the third time - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/3df31dd83565b90a?hl=en
* Revis hold out is official - 7 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/e042a8113536fa1a?hl=en
* Our Cornerback Revis Philbin Needs To End Hold Out!! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1c5ce370cf044e9b?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: RIP:The Assassin
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/361328ec1d70a0fe?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 31 2010 8:41 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Harlan Lachman" <harlan@eeivt.com> wrote in message
news:harlan-00F6B5.13595329072010@news60.forteinc.com...
> In article
> <fcafd407-4744-4b91-84cb-157b53ab6a98@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,
> Michael <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> i dont know if they have been the most dirty in general.
>
> Yes, they were.
>
> h

The way they play today, dirty players are the ones who have the physicality
and skills to do it, to inflict the damage, plus they have the balls to do
it and try to get away with it. It's intimidation and it works. It's a
violent league / game and has all the potential to become even moreso I
think. Players get the lable when they allow it to become part of their
personna and advertise it.


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 12:04 pm
From: Michael


On Jul 31, 11:41 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Harlan Lachman" <har...@eeivt.com> wrote in message
>
> news:harlan-00F6B5.13595329072010@news60.forteinc.com...
>
> > In article
> > <fcafd407-4744-4b91-84cb-157b53ab6...@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com>,
> > Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> i dont know if they have been the most dirty in general.
>
> > Yes, they were.
>
> > h
>
> The way they play today, dirty players are the ones who have the physicality
> and skills to do it, to inflict the damage, plus they have the balls to do
> it and try to get away with it.  It's intimidation and it works. It's a
> violent league / game and has all the potential to become even moreso I
> think.  Players get the lable when they allow it to become part of their
> personna and advertise it.

papa... i was thinking the same thing... take big bad lyle alzado in
his big bad black raiders uniform... he acted out with his mouth all
the time and advertised himself as a violent hard case. you cant tell
me for one second that any members of the dolphins "no name" defense
with their cute little fishies on their helmets had any less ideas
about brutality than alzado or what ever other raider guy that
packaged himself up in a criminal persona. also take mangold...always
smiling in photos and saying the right things. he's a brutal player to
go against.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT.VATICAN & ISRAEL = a Satanic Union ?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1d35581c7db9057b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 1:49 am
From:


OT.VATICAN & ISRAEL = a Satanic Union ?

VATICAN & ISRAEL, united in a SATANIC UNION (+ Russia ?), for
CONQUERING the GLOBE ?

The greatest DREAM of ZIONISTS from RUSSIA ?


Two or Three Agents, united for only One GLOBAL CRISIS ?

For robbing to America the Center of New Technologies : The INVENTION
and the INVENTORS, in any legal system and by means of the ALL
DISLOYAL SYSTEMS.

An example : The SPALIC Process (System Putification Air (and gases)
for Lavage In Compression, of an US company from Florida (GOOD FOR
30 UTILIZATIONS), is utilized without an authentic Patent (and BLOCKED
FOR 29 UTILIZATIONS), by the Bionomic Industries Inc from NJ, by
paying fraudulent royalties to an Italian company in Milan, by Mario
Scaramella,
partner of Berlusconi,
thanks to Israel and Vatican FRAUDS ?.

Why 5 Jews did be arrested, in NYC, at September, 11 2001 ?

Why the airplane against Pentagone was without wings ?

Why at September, 18 2008 Israel and Vatican Banks did withdraw
500 billions dollars in US banks, within 2 hours ?

What does do Bildeberg Group ? (Israel + Vatican + Russia ?)

What does do Rotay Club ? (US)

What does do Lions Club ? (US)

What does do AIPAC ? (US)

What does do the Knights of Malta ? (Great Britain)

Why the Jews Lobby in the US, controls the 75 % of the US Senators
?

Where is the freedom of the US citizens ?

Why IS IS BLOCKED THE MILITARY CHANGE BY OBAMA ?

Till WHEN, the US workers, WILL MUST SUFFER the GLOBAL POWER
OF THE SATANIC UNION ISRAEL-VATICAN ?

(Vatican = not only paedophilia, but also technology, espionage and
much money and strategy power, by means of over 10.000 hospitals in
whole world).

(Israel = not only 3.000 bombs for WTC of NYC and missile for
Pentagon, but also Coffins (Afghanistan and Iraq), Rubbles
(Palestinians), Blackmails & Murders by Infections of viruses and
Parasites (Inventors & NASA), Fires (California), Blacke Tides (Louisiana
and others), Technologies with Espionage and much money and strategy
power.

Is IRAN also, a good strategic argument for HIDING THE TRUTH
????????!!!!!!!!!!

=====================

Obama's and Bernanke, (and the honest Jews of America) efforts
can't SOLVE THE ECONOMICAL TRAP
BUILT BY ISRAEL & VATICAN SATANIC ACCORD !!!!!............

ONE ONLY IS THE SOLUTION FOR THE ECONOMICAL CRISIS :

BOMBING ISRAEL .. BOMBING ISRAEL .. BOMBING ISRAEL ..

1) Eliminating the most danger for the FREEDOM OF THE WHOLE
WORLD.

2) UNBLOCKING THE ECONOMICAL CRISIS AND THE MILITARY CHANGE BY
OBAMA.


I were a very very very catholic men....
DEFRAUDED BY VATICAN AND ISRAEL RUSSIAN MAFIA

Each Catholic person needs a NEW RELIGION.
Aki

==============================================================================
TOPIC: well that was fast
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/ff37372be879113b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 7:12 am
From: MZ


http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/wes-welker-off-pup-practices-today


== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 8:11 am
From: graybeard


On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:12:32 -0400 MZ <mark@nospam.void> wrote:

>http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/wes-welker-off-pup-practices-today

I guess he takes working out a little more seriously than Joe McKnight
does.
--
graybeard


== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 8:33 am
From: Harlan Lachman


In article <gi3b56h3l1jt2pnj77j1ino1o94jkt7tmh@4ax.com>,
graybeard <graybeard@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:12:32 -0400 MZ <mark@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> >http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/wes-welk
> >er-off-pup-practices-today
>
> I guess he takes working out a little more seriously than Joe McKnight
> does.

Too bad for the NY Jets. I guess we will find out if any of our CBs can
stop Welker. Whichever team beats the other twice, has an excellent shot
at the SB. If they split, both are beatable and will likely watch the SB
from home.

harlan


== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 11:51 am
From: Michael


On Aug 1, 11:33 am, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
> In article <gi3b56h3l1jt2pnj77j1ino1o94jkt7...@4ax.com>,
>
>  graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:12:32 -0400 MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > >http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/...
> > >er-off-pup-practices-today
>
> > I guess he takes working out a little more seriously than Joe McKnight
> > does.
>
> Too bad for the NY Jets. I guess we will find out if any of our CBs can
> stop Welker. Whichever team beats the other twice, has an excellent shot
> at the SB. If they split, both are beatable and will likely watch the SB
> from home.
>
> harlan

welker is no worry now, so long as revis, cromartie and wilson stay
healthey.... not to mention lets see if revis shows up at cortland
today by 5:30. the jets now have the manpower to put a quality cover
cb on slot guys AND still have two more cover cb's out on the
corners. the jets are going to be nearly impossible to score on


== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 12:56 pm
From: Tutor


On Aug 1, 2:51 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 11:33 am, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <gi3b56h3l1jt2pnj77j1ino1o94jkt7...@4ax.com>,
>
> >  graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:12:32 -0400 MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> > > >http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/...
> > > >er-off-pup-practices-today
>
> > > I guess he takes working out a little more seriously than Joe McKnight
> > > does.
>
> > Too bad for the NY Jets. I guess we will find out if any of our CBs can
> > stop Welker. Whichever team beats the other twice, has an excellent shot
> > at the SB. If they split, both are beatable and will likely watch the SB
> > from home.
>
> > harlan
>
> welker is no worry now, so long as revis, cromartie and wilson stay
> healthey.... not to mention lets see if revis shows up at cortland
> today by 5:30.  the jets now have the manpower to put a quality cover
> cb on slot guys AND still have two more cover cb's out on the
> corners.  the jets are going to be nearly impossible to score on- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

the Colts playoff game is why Wilson was drafted.


== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 2:39 pm
From: graybeard


On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 11:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Michael <mjd1966@verizon.net>
wrote:

>On Aug 1, 11:33 am, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
>> In article <gi3b56h3l1jt2pnj77j1ino1o94jkt7...@4ax.com>,
>>
>>  graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:12:32 -0400 MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>>
>> > >http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/...
>> > >er-off-pup-practices-today
>>
>> > I guess he takes working out a little more seriously than Joe McKnight
>> > does.
>>
>> Too bad for the NY Jets. I guess we will find out if any of our CBs can
>> stop Welker. Whichever team beats the other twice, has an excellent shot
>> at the SB. If they split, both are beatable and will likely watch the SB
>> from home.
>>
>> harlan
>
>welker is no worry now, so long as revis, cromartie and wilson stay
>healthey.... not to mention lets see if revis shows up at cortland
>today by 5:30. the jets now have the manpower to put a quality cover
>cb on slot guys AND still have two more cover cb's out on the
>corners. the jets are going to be nearly impossible to score on

I never get tired of being amused every year when someone claims that a
raw rookie is going to step on the field and immediately play like an
all pro.
--
graybeard


== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 3:49 pm
From: Michael


On Aug 1, 5:39 pm, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 11:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Aug 1, 11:33 am, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
> >> In article <gi3b56h3l1jt2pnj77j1ino1o94jkt7...@4ax.com>,
>
> >>  graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:12:32 -0400 MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> >> > >http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/...
> >> > >er-off-pup-practices-today
>
> >> > I guess he takes working out a little more seriously than Joe McKnight
> >> > does.
>
> >> Too bad for the NY Jets. I guess we will find out if any of our CBs can
> >> stop Welker. Whichever team beats the other twice, has an excellent shot
> >> at the SB. If they split, both are beatable and will likely watch the SB
> >> from home.
>
> >> harlan
>
> >welker is no worry now, so long as revis, cromartie and wilson stay
> >healthey.... not to mention lets see if revis shows up at cortland
> >today by 5:30.  the jets now have the manpower to put a quality cover
> >cb on slot guys AND still have two more cover cb's out on the
> >corners.  the jets are going to be nearly impossible to score on
>
> I never get tired of being amused every year when someone claims that a
> raw rookie is going to step on the field and immediately play like an
> all pro.
> --
> graybeard- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

cb's can help right away lots of the time. with more and more college
programs emulating pro style teams, you'll see more and more rookie
guy's coming in right away and helping out. you see that a lot now
too with rookie qb's. the college ranks have changed a lot since the
70's and 80's. the big "football factories" might as well be called
professional athletics.


== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:21 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:42a05397-72cc-4bd5-8a71-f994baa9987d@a4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 1, 5:39 pm, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Aug 2010 11:51:37 -0700 (PDT) Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Aug 1, 11:33 am, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
> >> In article <gi3b56h3l1jt2pnj77j1ino1o94jkt7...@4ax.com>,
>
> >> graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 10:12:32 -0400 MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> >> > >http://espn.go.com/blog/bostonnew-england-patriots/post/_/id/4680702/...
> >> > >er-off-pup-practices-today
>
> >> > I guess he takes working out a little more seriously than Joe
> >> > McKnight
> >> > does.
>
> >> Too bad for the NY Jets. I guess we will find out if any of our CBs can
> >> stop Welker. Whichever team beats the other twice, has an excellent
> >> shot
> >> at the SB. If they split, both are beatable and will likely watch the
> >> SB
> >> from home.
>
> >> harlan
>
> >welker is no worry now, so long as revis, cromartie and wilson stay
> >healthey.... not to mention lets see if revis shows up at cortland
> >today by 5:30. the jets now have the manpower to put a quality cover
> >cb on slot guys AND still have two more cover cb's out on the
> >corners. the jets are going to be nearly impossible to score on
>
> I never get tired of being amused every year when someone claims that a
> raw rookie is going to step on the field and immediately play like an
> all pro.
> --
> graybeard- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

cb's can help right away lots of the time. with more and more college
programs emulating pro style teams, you'll see more and more rookie
guy's coming in right away and helping out. you see that a lot now
too with rookie qb's. the college ranks have changed a lot since the
70's and 80's. the big "football factories" might as well be called
professional athletics.

In his first year Revis was better than at least half the other corners
playing...OMHO Papa Carl

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WhatIfSports NFL predictions
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/acdb52eb595c9cb4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 12:10 pm
From: Michael


Jets win only 7 and miss the playoffs

http://www.whatifsports.com/beyondtheboxscore/default.asp?article=2010NFL_PlayoffPredictions&Gt1=39002

What a pisser...


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 12:55 pm
From: Tutor


On Aug 1, 3:10 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Jets win only 7 and  miss the playoffs
>
> http://www.whatifsports.com/beyondtheboxscore/default.asp?article=201...
>
> What a pisser...

oooooh scary

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT - News Readers
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/d568e01a0558fab0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 3:16 pm
From: buRford


On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 07:44:42 -0400, graybeard <graybeard@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 22:35:13 -0400 buRford <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote:
>
>>grey always mentions how good (& cheap) the forte agent newsfeeds are (APN)...
>>http://www.forteinc.com/apn/index.php
>
>I was part of the beta test group when Forte started up the APN service
>in 2003, and I have been a subscriber ever since. Only $2.95/month for
>12GB/month. Very good technical support. Best thing is their amazing
>spam filter. I find Google Groups web interface all but unreadable in
>trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I can't imagine using google, other than in a NG emergency ;) I sometimes use their RSS
feed in Firefox, just to see if there are any new posts. For that, it serves its purpose.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mark Brunell Signed
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/8124adfddfbb3e38?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 3:21 pm
From: buRford


On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 19:52:37 -0700 (PDT), Michael <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Jul 29, 8:17 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
>> In article
>> <c67e91ad-b28f-48b3-ada0-ed44b37e3...@g35g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> > On Jul 29, 1:47 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>> > > Ian wrote:
>> > > > On Jul 29, 3:37 am, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:
>> > > >> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:36:42 -0700 (PDT), JetsLife <JetsL...@aol.com>
>> > > >> wrote:
>>
>> > > >>>http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ga1W08AIx1qMbt7rAEz...
>> > > >>> If he has even a little left in the tank I like this move.  So who
>> > > >>> goes after camp: Ainge, O'Connell or Brunell?
>> > > >> I suspect Clemens will go...
>>
>> > > > Agreed.
>>
>> > > > Ainge has shown a glimpse in pre-season that he can chuck it about a
>> > > > bit.
>> > > > You don't sign a player like Brunell at vet minimum just to mentor
>> > > > through training camp, you keep him all year.
>>
>> > > > So that leaves two :-
>> > > > O'Connell's ability is an unknown
>> > > > Clemens' ability is known.
>>
>> > > > It's a no-brainer, take the coin toss on O'Connell.
>>
>> > > Another thing to consider...  O'Connell is a runner.  Clemens isn't.  If
>> > > Sanchez went down, would they be comfortable using a Mike Vick type of
>> > > player back there?  Makes more sense in a spread type of offense than in
>> > > a ground and pound.  So I see Clemens making it over O'Connell unless
>> > > O'Connell suddenly learns how to throw.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > clemens is a waste of a roster spot.
>>
>> So are Ainge, O'Connell and Brunell.
>>
>> harlan- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>i dunno... i think brunell is valuable as a back up. he's got enough
>left to come in and "not lose the game" for you. his experience is
>valuable. when he was not injured, he was a quality passer and a
>winner. O'Connell I think is a waste of a roster spot. I am giving
>Ainge an "incomplete" as a grade. He is not very slick, but I like
>his size and he has a good arm. He threw some good looking passes in
>the preseason. still... i dont know what to think of ainge. smith is
>an awesome guy to have around and makes an ideal # 3 while also being
>a great trick play/utility guy too. I think they can send O'Connell,
>Clemens packing, but i just dont know about ainge. this preseason will
>sort out who we'll keep

I'd like to see what happens with Ainge. I just remember that his college coach said some
very positive things about him, which makes him to me, worth giving another year's look.


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:22 pm
From: Tutor


On Aug 1, 6:21 pm, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:

>
> I'd like to see what happens with Ainge.  I just remember that his college coach said some
> very positive things about him, which makes him to me, worth giving another year's look.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

agreed. We pretty much know what Clemens has (and doesn't have).
Brunell is useless. He was downright terrible in practice throughout
2009 in New Orleans, from all reports. Sorry to say but Clemens is
probably better than Brunell. If Sanchez goes down, this team will be
in big trouble. No Cassels here at the moment. Ainge probably our
best chance.


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:23 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Harlan Lachman" <harlan@eeivt.com> wrote in message
news:harlan-8449A7.14053729072010@news60.forteinc.com...
> In article <a9q15613m2i03p6i43jbffeacr3al52dsc@4ax.com>,
> buRford <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 16:36:42 -0700 (PDT), JetsLife <JetsLife@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ga1W08AIx1qMbt7rAEzAaVHZn61
>> >gD9H8B7FO0
>> >
>> >If he has even a little left in the tank I like this move. So who
>> >goes after camp: Ainge, O'Connell or Brunell?
>>
>> I suspect Clemens will go...
>
> As I have posted on thejetsblog.com, all of them should go. None will be
> starters or number 2s on another team.
>
> Brad Smith should be the primary back-up. And, perhaps Brunnel as the
> cheapest should stay. But, I don't care who stays because any PT for any
> of them means our season is done.
>
> h

And we agree. I think they had some opportunities to find someone that
could fill the void for a game or two at best...they don't have anybody now.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Coles a Jet for the third time
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/3df31dd83565b90a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 3:26 pm
From: buRford


On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 21:10:51 -0700 (PDT), Johnny Morongo
<j.mirehiel@harmonicconcordance.com> wrote:

>On Jul 30, 8:24 pm, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:57:59 -0400 MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
>>
>> >Tutor wrote:
>> >> Just saw a post elsewhere that Coles will be making his 3rd stint as a
>> >> NY Jet.  Don't know what to make of this, but it can't hurt while
>> >> Holmes serves his suspension.  He didn't show much last season on the
>> >> Bengals, but a the 4th receiver after Edwards, Holmes and Cotchery, I
>> >> think we are well set at the position.
>>
>> >They needed more depth to round out the roster in case of injury,
>> >especially for the first four weeks like you said.  Good signing.  I
>> >assume he was cheap?
>>
>> Reportedly one year at vet minimum salary.
>> --
>> graybeard
>
>AND..., according to Cimini:
>
> "It's an insurance policy for them," Coles said. "Those first
>four games are very important for the team to get where they want to
>go. It's an opportunity for me to come in and see what I can still do,
>but there's a slim chance I'll be there after four games. There's a
>good chance I'll get released; it depends on how things go. They were
>honest and open about it. It is what it is."
>
>Cimini goes on to say:
> As a veteran, if Coles is on the opening day roster, his base
>salary will be guaranteed. It's believed that he signed for the
>veterans' minimum, $855,000 -- which wouldn't be a bad take for
>training camp, plus four games.
>
>Not a bad signing, but that takes away the deep threat that Clowney
>could provide. WE know that Coles doesn't have that top end speed
>anymore. I hope he doesn't eat up a roster space that might more
>profitably go to someone not as high on the radar right now.


You quoting Cimini... who are you, Impostor?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Revis hold out is official
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/e042a8113536fa1a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:19 pm
From: Michael


http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/darrelle-revis-will-hold-out-from-new-york-jets-training-camp/1

How long you think it will last ??? Past the start of the season ???


== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:24 pm
From: Tutor


On Aug 1, 7:19 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/darrel...
>
> How long you think it will last ??? Past the start of the season ???

He will be there on August 10th. Per this year's rules, if he is not
there 30 days before the first NFL game, he loses one year of
eligibility toward being an UFA AND loses his guaranteed money. He's
not stupid. That won't happen.

What we have here is a 9 day protest. Or tantrum.


== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 4:35 pm
From: Michael


On Aug 1, 7:24 pm, Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 7:19 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/darrel...
>
> > How long you think it will last ??? Past the start of the season ???
>
> He will be there on August 10th.  Per this year's rules, if he is not
> there 30 days before the first NFL game, he loses one year of
> eligibility toward being an UFA AND loses his guaranteed money.  He's
> not stupid.  That won't happen.
>
> What we have here is a 9 day protest.  Or tantrum.

and if he shows up to play and blows out a knee ??? i can understand
why he wants a revision. in the long run, if he contract is not
changed, he stands to lose a lot more if he does not hold out if he
plays and gets injured


== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:19 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8e49585b-68cc-4574-ad77-192d0640cf7a@b4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 1, 7:24 pm, Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 7:19 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/darrel...
>
> > How long you think it will last ??? Past the start of the season ???
>
> He will be there on August 10th. Per this year's rules, if he is not
> there 30 days before the first NFL game, he loses one year of
> eligibility toward being an UFA AND loses his guaranteed money. He's
> not stupid. That won't happen.
>
> What we have here is a 9 day protest. Or tantrum.

and if he shows up to play and blows out a knee ??? i can understand
why he wants a revision. in the long run, if he contract is not
changed, he stands to lose a lot more if he does not hold out if he
plays and gets injured

Injury is part of the game and is always there. How many guys could have
been...would have been...and never got the chance because a senior year
injury took them out of it? It is just the way it is, if he plays to not
get injured or even begins to put that into the equation of things, he will
get injured. The best thing to fight off injury is being in shape, and
being ready to play, I don't think you accomplish that holding out. Then
again, I think without him the Jets' D is lost...so if they want to make the
big splash this year, they best figure out how to get him into camp.


== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 5:53 pm
From: Michael


On Aug 1, 8:19 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:8e49585b-68cc-4574-ad77-192d0640cf7a@b4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 1, 7:24 pm, Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 1, 7:19 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > >http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/darrel...
>
> > > How long you think it will last ??? Past the start of the season ???
>
> > He will be there on August 10th. Per this year's rules, if he is not
> > there 30 days before the first NFL game, he loses one year of
> > eligibility toward being an UFA AND loses his guaranteed money. He's
> > not stupid. That won't happen.
>
> > What we have here is a 9 day protest. Or tantrum.
>
> and if he shows up to play and blows out a knee ??? i can understand
> why he wants a revision.  in the long run, if he contract is not
> changed, he stands to lose a lot more if he does not hold out if he
> plays and gets injured
>
> Injury is part of the game and is always there.  How many guys could have
> been...would have been...and never got the chance because a senior year
> injury took them out of it?  It is just the way it is, if he plays to not
> get injured or even begins to put that into the equation of things, he will
> get injured.  The best thing to fight off injury is being in shape, and
> being ready to play, I don't think you accomplish that holding out.  Then
> again, I think without him the Jets' D is lost...so if they want to make the
> big splash this year, they best figure out how to get him into camp.

not so sure i agree about the business end of it but i do agree the
jets d needs him badly. more than any other style of defense out
there, the rex defense MUST have good cb's or forget about it. the
jets defense can do with good to average players on defense at any
other position, but not cb... you need top notch talent and not jags


== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 6:30 pm
From: Hammer


On Aug 1, 8:53 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 8:19 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:8e49585b-68cc-4574-ad77-192d0640cf7a@b4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> > On Aug 1, 7:24 pm, Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 1, 7:19 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > >http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/darrel...
>
> > > > How long you think it will last ??? Past the start of the season ???
>
> > > He will be there on August 10th. Per this year's rules, if he is not
> > > there 30 days before the first NFL game, he loses one year of
> > > eligibility toward being an UFA AND loses his guaranteed money. He's
> > > not stupid. That won't happen.
>
> > > What we have here is a 9 day protest. Or tantrum.
>
> > and if he shows up to play and blows out a knee ??? i can understand
> > why he wants a revision.  in the long run, if he contract is not
> > changed, he stands to lose a lot more if he does not hold out if he
> > plays and gets injured
>
> > Injury is part of the game and is always there.  How many guys could have
> > been...would have been...and never got the chance because a senior year
> > injury took them out of it?  It is just the way it is, if he plays to not
> > get injured or even begins to put that into the equation of things, he will
> > get injured.  The best thing to fight off injury is being in shape, and
> > being ready to play, I don't think you accomplish that holding out.  Then
> > again, I think without him the Jets' D is lost...so if they want to make the
> > big splash this year, they best figure out how to get him into camp.
>
> not so sure i agree about the business end of it but i do agree the
> jets d needs him badly.  more than any other style of defense out
> there, the rex defense MUST have good cb's or forget about it.  the
> jets defense can do with good to average players on defense at any
> other position, but not cb... you need top notch talent and not jags- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I hate to say this but I would not pay the guy a cent even if it means
the Jets have a losing season. It's a matter of principle, and also
what other players will learn from this.


== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 6:30 pm
From: "Ray OHara"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:8e49585b-68cc-4574-ad77-192d0640cf7a@b4g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
On Aug 1, 7:24 pm, Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 1, 7:19 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >http://content.usatoday.com/communities/thehuddle/post/2010/08/darrel...
>
> > How long you think it will last ??? Past the start of the season ???
>
> He will be there on August 10th. Per this year's rules, if he is not
> there 30 days before the first NFL game, he loses one year of
> eligibility toward being an UFA AND loses his guaranteed money. He's
> not stupid. That won't happen.
>
> What we have here is a 9 day protest. Or tantrum.

and if he shows up to play and blows out a knee ??? i can understand
why he wants a revision. in the long run, if he contract is not
changed, he stands to lose a lot more if he does not hold out if he
plays and gets injured


=========================================================================

he signed the contract , time to honor it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Our Cornerback Revis Philbin Needs To End Hold Out!!
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1c5ce370cf044e9b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Aug 1 2010 6:19 pm
From: "mr dude@harvarduniversity.edu"


This is a TEAM sport Philbin!!!

You signed a contract, now abide by it!!!

mr dude (go jets)


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