Monday, August 16, 2010

rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

Buzz It
rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* The Limitations of pro athletes - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4f848250457bd359?hl=en
* Incredulity in Slovenia - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/6a54a0a2f2f31659?hl=en
* Can I build up a Dura-Ace hub with 15/16 DB spokes? - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b6bfb4ab016fa2e9?hl=en
* Lance's room service in France will have a little extra urine in the OJ from
this day on - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/56d6062ae8d124f9?hl=en
* Is Chris Horner the next George Blanda? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/0399d2b6ba191b2c?hl=en
* Landis Drug runner Bike, The Rest of the Story - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c58196de7786ffc2?hl=en
* THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY CYCLE HELMET LAW (IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
by Andre Jute - 5 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/2083c18b9ff31278?hl=en
* Circle the Wagons and Say Nothing - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ae360e9ff6cedb02?hl=en
* Landis bike mystery solved - 5 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/295bdcdde3bf8036?hl=en
* My dogma has bad karma - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b0e39c04f63691e7?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Limitations of pro athletes
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4f848250457bd359?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 2:50 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau


On Aug 13, 3:07 pm, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 13, 11:12 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I agree with all of this, more or less. Except the part about people
> > on rbr. I'm well-rounded: I like computers, arguing, and sprinting.
> > That's three interests, surely enough.
>
> I like climbing, but I couldn't sprint my way past a kid on a trike
> without Renshaw head-butting him...or her.  Does that mean I'm not
> well-rounded?  If you say yes, I may have to draw some conclusions
> about your love of sprinting and your well-rounded jersey.  :)~

Liking climbing is a symptom of body dysmorphic disorder.

My jersey is disturbingly well-rounded. Let's put it this way: I get
podium placings in the flat training-crit series, and I get dropped in
the training-crit series that has a climb*.

> PS  You left out drinking.

I must have been drunk when I did that. Boomsma Jonge genever is nice.

*It is a pretty brutal climb. 1.5 km laps with around 30m of climbing
per lap.


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 2:58 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau


On Aug 13, 10:43 am, Frederick the Great <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <6385c312-2140-49b8-bc41-b7eee7397...@v6g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>  Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 12, 10:46 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2010/08/tradeoff...
>
> > > Quoting from a 1995 David Foster Wallace essay, "The String Theory":
>
> > > .. it's better for us not to know the kinds of sacrifices the
> > > professional-grade athlete has made to get so very good at one
> > > particular thing. Oh, we'll invoke lush cliches about the lonely
> > > heroism of Olympic athletes, the pain and analgesia of football, the
> > > early rising and hours of practice and restricted diets, the preflight
> > > celibacy, et cetera. But the actual facts of the sacrifices repel us
> > > when we see them: basketball geniuses who cannot read, sprinters who
> > > dope themselves, defensive tackles who shoot up with bovine hormones
> > > until they collapse or explode. We prefer not to consider closely the
> > > shockingly vapid and primitive comments uttered by athletes in
> > > postcontest interviews or to consider what impoverishments in one's
> > > mental life would allow people actually to think the way great
> > > athletes seem to think. Note the way "up close and personal" profiles
> > > of professional athletes strain so hard to find evidence of a rounded
> > > human life -- outside interests and activities, values beyond the
> > > sport. We ignore what's obvious, that most of this straining is farce.
> > > It's farce because the realities of top-level athletics today require
> > > an early and total commitment to one area of excellence. An ascetic
> > > focus. A subsumption of almost all other features of human life to one
> > > chosen talent and pursuit. A consent to live in a world that, like a
> > > child's world, is very small.
>
> > > Complete essay here:
>
> > >http://www.esquire.com/features/sports/the-string-theory-0796
>
> > > I reiterate once again my love of amateur bike racing.
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > You've read "De Renner."  And you know the teeth-gritting
> > mentality of the amateur bike racer.
>
> > People on rbr are not in a position to criticize pro athletes
> > for being obsessives.
>
> > It takes a certain dedication to become one of the best or most
> > extreme at a given pursuit.  This does not necessarily mean
> > that the most extreme are the most one-dimensional.  Extreme
> > outlier people are often outliers in more than just their main
> > pursuit.  Maybe that is not true of professional athletes, who
> > have had to give up an education and also spend a lot of their
> > time being told how great they are.  But I'll bet that, while the
> > general public wishes to live in ignorance of sprinters
> > doping themselves, their choice to dope itself has relatively little
> > to do with whether they are are diminished personalities.
>
> [...]
>
> > David Foster Wallace, his talent, his varied interests (how many
> > novelists have something intelligent to say about athletics?) and,
> > sadly, his fate, is actually a fairly good example of the extremism
> > of the extreme talent himself.
>
> Have you read his work? The excerpt above does make me
> want to read DFW. He seems to leave out important
> things that would naturally occur to someone of his
> apparent perspicacity; charity, for one.
>
> --
> Old Fritz

If you're interested in Wallace's writing, I think his essays are an
excellent entry point. "String Theory" will appeal to saddo athletes
like us; his most famous essay was probably "Shipping Out" aka "A
Supposedly Fun Thing I'll Never Do Again" about his experience on a
cruise ship:

http://harpers.org/media/pdf/dfw/HarpersMagazine-1996-01-0007859.pdf

If you like those two, then consider giving his novel Infinite Jest a
try; I haven't yet.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Incredulity in Slovenia
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/6a54a0a2f2f31659?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 2:56 pm
From: Superfly TNT


On Aug 16, 9:34 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Poznavalci ozadja pravijo, da imajo preiskovalci veliko več informacij,
> kot si marsikdo misli, sprašujejo pa se, kako je mogoče, da so se v
> zadnjih letih na Touru, Giru in Vuelti v mrežo dopinga ujeli mnogi
> njegovi veliki tekmeci in druge črne ovce modernega kolesarstva -
> Pantani, Ullrich, Heras, Virenque, Basso, Rumsas, Mayo, Sevilla,
> Mancebo, Hamilton, Landis in Rasmussen oziroma, kako to, da so po odhodu
> iz US Postala in Discoveryja na dopinških kontrolah po vrsti padli
> njegovi zvesti pomočniki - Beltran, Landis, Hamilton in Heras.
> Generalni direktor svetovne protidopinške agencije WADA David Howman, ki
> se redno javlja s komentarji (!?) ob vsaki obtožbi na Armstrongov račun,
> verjame, da bo Landisovo pričanje proti Armstrongu, Leipheimerju,
> Hincapieju, Zabriskieju in Bruyneelu slej ko prej obrodilo sadove.http://www.delo.si/clanek/117524


.
.
.
Google Translate from Slovenian
.
.
.
If he will show the taking of illicit funds, the athletic affairs of
fallen angels American Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery and
Kelly White piece of cake. Osemintridesetletni Teksačan is undoubtedly
the largest "fish" that we want to capture the network of Anti-Doping
Agency.
Since the last time in 2005, won the Tour de France and finished his
career first, the target of severe Teksačan doping allegations.
Firstly, the Pillory impaled on the French, who have only a few months
after winning the seventh announced that some of his samples were
positive and that he used EPO. He was then accused journalists, as his
teammate in the U.S. has become (Frankie Adreau) Finally, the storm
brought many years one of the most loyal assistants Floyd Landis.
"Boss" complains that it was taking prohibited means to promote their
knowledge and doping in the team. Heir apparent to the Champion Tour,
which he seized victory in 2006 caused by the use of testosterone, the
U.S. federal investigators described how the Italian physician and
consultant for training in preparation for Michelle Ferrari Armstrong
took the blood that it would have returned to the body in the hardest
stages Tour de France (case the classic blood doping), how was taking
testosterone how to Armstrong in 2003 in preparation for the Girona
asked that in his absence, a computer monitor thermometer, blood will
remain at the optimum temperature between ohlajenjem with two degrees
Celsius. He said that in 2002 the award for dedication to the team and
the Tour de France boss $ 40,000 and a new two-year contract, which
was increased to $ 200,000 ...

Armstrong doping allegations, all strongly rejected by the Landisovih
is said to be denied it, as long as live. "U.S. and World Anti-Doping
Agency and the UCI, I tested more than 500-fold. Cyclists were not
American football players or baseball. We have our own authentic link
and play under its rules, "commented an increasingly severe pressure.
If the allegations are so far focused on more or less at the sports
round, but the last testimony of Landis and some unnamed U.S. cyclists
in time became an investigation of U.S. federal authorities. Led by
Jeff Novitzky, a special agent for criminal investigations in the
federal government, which is renowned in the Balco case, which is
based on fraud and threatened heavy sanctions forced the withdrawal of
recognition of doping. An important theme in the investigation of the
embezzlement, criminal grouping, money laundering, tax evasion, use of
taxpayers' money and black stock, which is financed by doping. Doping
investigation was expanded to the U.S. government mail (U.S. Postal),
which was Armstrong's team sponsor for the period from 1996 to 2004.
Controversial club has annual sales of bicycles at the end of the
season. Landis contends that he was in 2004, Bruyneel said that money
will go from 60 black wheels sold for doping program. Robert Burns
from Trek, while acknowledging that the bicycles squad was given, have
sold, but does not know where the money went. Bruyneel also confirmed
the sale (by individuals, the bikes sold through eBay online stores),
but denied that the money used for doping program. Armstrong also
allege that as a team co-owner of taxpayers' money unduly spent by
nečedne business. Seven-time Tour winner initially claimed that the
only rider in the squad, then acknowledged, however, that it was
"irrelevant", 10-percent owner ...

Background Insiders say that investigators have much more information
than you many think, I wonder how it is possible that in recent years
on the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and Vuelta in the net doping
captured many of its major competitors and other black sheep of modern
cycling - Pantani, Ullrich, Heras, Virenque, Basso, Rumsas, Mayo,
Sevilla, Mancebo, Hamilton, Landis and Rasmussen and how this, that
after leaving the U.S. and became the doping controls Discoveryja in
turn dropped his loyal assistants - Beltran, Landis, Hamilton and
Heras. General Director of the World Anti-Doping Agency WADA David
Howman, who is regularly at the comments (!?) On any charges against
Armstrong's account, believes that the evidence against Armstrong
Landisovo, Leipheimerju, Hincapieju, Bruyneelu Zabriskieju and
eventually bear fruit. "Remember the Balco affair, how long it lasted.
We may speak only on the outcome of 2016, "says Veljak WADA, which
would function in which it, probably should keep my mouth shut until
the outcome of things. American legal experts argue that the
government will very dubious documents difficult to prove that fraud.
The biggest problem is Landisova credibility, which is also played by
Armstrong. Landis is under oath is spoken entirely in the past other
things, as he speaks now. Brian Daly, a former state prosecutor, now
Armstrong's lawyer, says that many anonymous sources creates a circus
atmosphere, and the government abusing its power by discrediting and
wasting taxpayers' money, what is wrong, unethical and neameriško.
Armstrong and his lawyers are convinced that a conspiracy and that the
U.S. Anti-Doping Agency bribe former U.S. dopingirane become cyclists
and offers them a minor penalty.

An extensive investigation led by government investigators are
certainly not limited only to the U.S.. Should be integrated into the
Interpol. Responded to, where did cyclists and other athletes banned
substance, who stands for the network, through which countries are
razpečevalski channels, in particular, whether it involved illicit
business forum. They would also stop cycling "law of silence". It so
far - with some exceptions skesancev (excluding material evidence) -
encountered in almost all cases.
.
.
.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 5:25 pm
From: LawBoy01


On Aug 16, 4:56 pm, Superfly TNT <superfly-...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 16, 9:34 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>
> > Poznavalci ozadja pravijo, da imajo preiskovalci veliko več informacij,
> > kot si marsikdo misli, sprašujejo pa se, kako je mogoče, da so se v
> > zadnjih letih na Touru, Giru in Vuelti v mrežo dopinga ujeli mnogi
> > njegovi veliki tekmeci in druge črne ovce modernega kolesarstva -
> > Pantani, Ullrich, Heras, Virenque, Basso, Rumsas, Mayo, Sevilla,
> > Mancebo, Hamilton, Landis in Rasmussen oziroma, kako to, da so po odhodu
> > iz US Postala in Discoveryja na dopinških kontrolah po vrsti padli
> > njegovi zvesti pomočniki - Beltran, Landis, Hamilton in Heras.
> > Generalni direktor svetovne protidopinške agencije WADA David Howman, ki
> > se redno javlja s komentarji (!?) ob vsaki obtožbi na Armstrongov račun,
> > verjame, da bo Landisovo pričanje proti Armstrongu, Leipheimerju,
> > Hincapieju, Zabriskieju in Bruyneelu slej ko prej obrodilo sadove.http://www.delo.si/clanek/117524
>
> .
> .
> .
> Google Translate from Slovenian
> .
> .
> .
> If he will show the taking of illicit funds, the athletic affairs of
> fallen angels American Marion Jones, Justin Gatlin, Tim Montgomery and
> Kelly White piece of cake. Osemintridesetletni Teksačan is undoubtedly
> the largest "fish" that we want to capture the network of Anti-Doping
> Agency.
> Since the last time in 2005, won the Tour de France and finished his
> career first, the target of severe Teksačan doping allegations.
> Firstly, the Pillory impaled on the French, who have only a few months
> after winning the seventh announced that some of his samples were
> positive and that he used EPO. He was then accused journalists, as his
> teammate in the U.S. has become (Frankie Adreau) Finally, the storm
> brought many years one of the most loyal assistants Floyd Landis.
> "Boss" complains that it was taking prohibited means to promote their
> knowledge and doping in the team. Heir apparent to the Champion Tour,
> which he seized victory in 2006 caused by the use of testosterone, the
> U.S. federal investigators described how the Italian physician and
> consultant for training in preparation for Michelle Ferrari Armstrong
> took the blood that it would have returned to the body in the hardest
> stages Tour de France (case the classic blood doping), how was taking
> testosterone how to Armstrong in 2003 in preparation for the Girona
> asked that in his absence, a computer monitor thermometer, blood will
> remain at the optimum temperature between ohlajenjem with two degrees
> Celsius. He said that in 2002 the award for dedication to the team and
> the Tour de France boss $ 40,000 and a new two-year contract, which
> was increased to $ 200,000 ...
>
> Armstrong doping allegations, all strongly rejected by the Landisovih
> is said to be denied it, as long as live. "U.S. and World Anti-Doping
> Agency and the UCI, I tested more than 500-fold. Cyclists were not
> American football players or baseball. We have our own authentic link
> and play under its rules, "commented an increasingly severe pressure.
> If the allegations are so far focused on more or less at the sports
> round, but the last testimony of Landis and some unnamed U.S. cyclists
> in time became an investigation of U.S. federal authorities. Led by
> Jeff Novitzky, a special agent for criminal investigations in the
> federal government, which is renowned in the Balco case, which is
> based on fraud and threatened heavy sanctions forced the withdrawal of
> recognition of doping. An important theme in the investigation of the
> embezzlement, criminal grouping, money laundering, tax evasion, use of
> taxpayers' money and black stock, which is financed by doping. Doping
> investigation was expanded to the U.S. government mail (U.S. Postal),
> which was Armstrong's team sponsor for the period from 1996 to 2004.
> Controversial club has annual sales of bicycles at the end of the
> season. Landis contends that he was in 2004, Bruyneel said that money
> will go from 60 black wheels sold for doping program. Robert Burns
> from Trek, while acknowledging that the bicycles squad was given, have
> sold, but does not know where the money went. Bruyneel also confirmed
> the sale (by individuals, the bikes sold through eBay online stores),
> but denied that the money used for doping program. Armstrong also
> allege that as a team co-owner of taxpayers' money unduly spent by
> nečedne business. Seven-time Tour winner initially claimed that the
> only rider in the squad, then acknowledged, however, that it was
> "irrelevant", 10-percent owner ...
>
> Background Insiders say that investigators have much more information
> than you many think, I wonder how it is possible that in recent years
> on the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and Vuelta in the net doping
> captured many of its major competitors and other black sheep of modern
> cycling - Pantani, Ullrich, Heras, Virenque, Basso, Rumsas, Mayo,
> Sevilla, Mancebo, Hamilton, Landis and Rasmussen and how this, that
> after leaving the U.S. and became the doping controls Discoveryja in
> turn dropped his loyal assistants - Beltran, Landis, Hamilton and
> Heras. General Director of the World Anti-Doping Agency WADA David
> Howman, who is regularly at the comments (!?) On any charges against
> Armstrong's account, believes that the evidence against Armstrong
> Landisovo, Leipheimerju, Hincapieju, Bruyneelu Zabriskieju and
> eventually bear fruit. "Remember the Balco affair, how long it lasted.
> We may speak only on the outcome of 2016, "says Veljak WADA, which
> would function in which it, probably should keep my mouth shut until
> the outcome of things. American legal experts argue that the
> government will very dubious documents difficult to prove that fraud.
> The biggest problem is Landisova credibility, which is also played by
> Armstrong. Landis is under oath is spoken entirely in the past other
> things, as he speaks now. Brian Daly, a former state prosecutor, now
> Armstrong's lawyer, says that many anonymous sources creates a circus
> atmosphere, and the government abusing its power by discrediting and
> wasting taxpayers' money, what is wrong, unethical and neameriško.
> Armstrong and his lawyers are convinced that a conspiracy and that the
> U.S. Anti-Doping Agency bribe former U.S. dopingirane become cyclists
> and offers them a minor penalty.
>
> An extensive investigation led by government investigators are
> certainly not limited only to the U.S.. Should be integrated into the
> Interpol. Responded to, where did cyclists and other athletes banned
> substance, who stands for the network, through which countries are
> razpečevalski channels, in particular, whether it involved illicit
> business forum. They would also stop cycling "law of silence". It so
> far - with some exceptions skesancev (excluding material evidence) -
> encountered in almost all cases.
> .
> .
> .

They've just recapped what the NY Times and WSJ have already reported,
reporting of nothing.


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:52 pm
From: Anton Berlin


Lafferty - you do know about the "wire service" and the "24 hour news
cycle" right?

Give it a rest - it's the quiet period now.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Can I build up a Dura-Ace hub with 15/16 DB spokes?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b6bfb4ab016fa2e9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 3:10 pm
From: "Tom B."


On Aug 16, 11:39 am, "Steve Freides" <st...@kbnj.com> wrote:
> Please ask on rec.bicycles.tech.
>

Sorry about that; issued a delete post request about 1 minute after I
posted but it must have been too late.


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:47 pm
From: Anton Berlin


The answer is YES.

The important question is can the wheel survive a 40 mph descent and
will your life insurance pay your estate for what could be easily
described as suicidal stupidity.

if you want a strong low spoke wheel buy an H3. Or buy one like
Cavendish uses, (used) that folds during a sprint for no good
reason.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lance's room service in France will have a little extra urine in the OJ
from this day on
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/56d6062ae8d124f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 4:15 pm
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"Anton Berlin" <truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f23ec8c6-b552-406e-bbac-c92880d1abc7@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
>I mispoke - the 4 star concorde st lazarre in paris is always nice. I
> like the fact that the bathroom is larger than most hotel rooms in
> paris

We've found the Concorde Montparnasse to be both reasonable (about
$130/night if booked in advance) and pretty nice in terms of room size &
quality. Free wi-fi too. And if you ask nicely at the desk if they speak
English, they tell you "Of course" in a way that's not snooty. Then again,
according to that article referenced, a 4* hotel is required to have
english-speaking staff.

Speaking of english, interesting to read Riis talking about Alberto
Contador's need to learn English, and referencing the various others that
have essentially been required to in the past. How times have changed. How
long ago was it that French was the unifying language in the peloton? Who
would have thought that the Dutch would be one of the driving forces behind
the adoption of English? Makes perfect sense I guess, since the Dutch
certainly aren't going to expect the rest of the world to learn Flemish.
Actually, I don't they they *want* the rest of the world to know Flemish.
It's like their secret handshake, a way of communicating with each other
that nobody else can understand.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:44 pm
From: Anton Berlin


Flemish is easy just speak normally while choking on a chicken bone.
You'll be fluent in no time.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is Chris Horner the next George Blanda?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/0399d2b6ba191b2c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 4:30 pm
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


=====
p.s. this is all assuming that johan and company aren't all in jail by
then. maybe when this LANCE thing blows up, RadioShack decides it's
not interested in cycling anymore ...
=====

Have you seen evidence that RS is interested in cycling in the first place?
All I've seen are commercials featuring Lance. I don't see this going
anywhere good for RS. Whether innocent or guilty, Lance carries a lot of
baggage right now just because he's under investigation. How do you build a
PR campaign around someone that could put you in the Tiger Woods/Accenture
situation?

http://www.penn-olson.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/accenture-tiger-woods.jpg

Best bet is to lay low and see how it plays out. If Lance comes out clean,
he's back in business, and who knows, maybe with a bit of spin better than
ever. But I don't see a historical example of where somebody derived benefit
from sticking with someone through thick & thin, as opposed to those who
just came along for the ride during the good times. Innocent people whose
reputations were tarnished by McCarthy didn't get those reputations back
until after they were dead, if even then.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Landis Drug runner Bike, The Rest of the Story
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c58196de7786ffc2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 5:56 pm
From: TheCoz


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Solved-The-mystery-of-the-5-Floyd-Landis-bike?urn=top-262838

This is why I transport my road bikes inside my SUV.
But still, locked up on a rack, and it gets blown off from a gust of
wind?
Must have been a blue lite special rack.
Coz


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:55 pm
From: Anton Berlin


On Aug 16, 7:56 pm, TheCoz <cycled...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Solved-The-mystery-of-the-5-Floyd-...
>
> This is why I transport my road bikes inside my SUV.
> But still, locked up on a rack, and it gets blown off from a gust of
> wind?
> Must have been a blue lite special rack.
> Coz

Just noticed this - sorry didnt mean to pee on your post AB

==============================================================================
TOPIC: THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY CYCLE HELMET LAW (IN THE UNITED STATES OF
AMERICA) by Andre Jute
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/2083c18b9ff31278?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 5:58 pm
From: Andre Jute


Sorry, didn't mean to leave the rest of you guys off.

On Aug 17, 12:43 am, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY CYCLE HELMET LAW
> (IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
> by Andre Jute
>
> It is a risible myth that your average American is a tall-walking free
> individual untrammeled by government: he is in fact just as much
> constricted as a European soft-socialist consumerist or Japanese
> collective citizen, though it is true that the American is controlled
> in different areas of his activity than the European or the Japanese.
> To some the uncontrolled areas of American life, for instance the
> ability to own and use firearms, smacks of barbarism rather than
> liberty. In this article I examine whether the lack of a mandatory
> bicycle helmet law in the USA is barbaric or an emanation of that
> rugged liberty more evident in rhetoric than reality.
>
> Any case for intervention by the state must be made on moral and
> statistical grounds. Examples are driving licences, crush zones on
> cars, seatbelts, age restrictions on alcohol sales, and a million
> other interventions, all now accepted unremarked in the States as part
> of the regulatory landscape, but all virulently opposed in their day.
>
> HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING?
> Surprisingly, cycling can be argued to be "safe enough", given only
> that one is willing to count the intangible benefits of health through
> exercise, generally acknowledged as substantial. Here I shall make no
> effort to quantify those health benefits because the argument I'm
> putting forward is conclusively made by harder statistics and
> unexceptional general morality.
>
> In the representative year of 2008, the last for which comprehesive
> data is available, 716 cyclists died on US roads, and 52,000 were
> injured.
>
> Source: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
>
> The most convenient way to grasp the meaning of these statistics is to
> compare cycling with motoring, the latter ipso facto by motorists'
> average mileage accepted by most Americans as safe enough.
>
> Compared to a motorist a cyclist is:
> 11 times MORE likely to die PER MILE travelled
> 2.9 times MORE likely to die PER TRIP taken
>
> By adding information about the relative frequency/length/duration of
> journeys of cyclists and motorists, we can further conclude that in
> the US:
>
> Compared to a motorist, a cyclist is:
> 3 to 4 times MORE likely to die PER HOUR riding
> 3 to 4 times LESS likely to die IN A YEAR's riding
>
> Source:http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.ta.org.br/site/Banco/7man...
>
> It is the last number, that the average cyclist is 3 to 4 times less
> likely to die in a year's riding than a motorist, and enjoys all the
> benefits of healthy exercise, that permits us to ignore the greater
> per mile/per trip/per hour danger.
>
> This gives us the overall perspective but says nothing about wearing a
> cycling helmet.
>
> HELMET WEAR AT THE EXTREME END OF CYCLING RISK
>
> What we really want to know is: what chance of the helmet saving your
> life? The authorities in New York made a compilation covering the
> years 1996 to 2003 of all the deaths (225) and serious injuries
> (3,462) in cycling accidents in all New York City. The purpose of the
> study was an overview usable for city development planning, not helmet
> advocacy, so helmet usage was only noted for part of the period among
> the seriously injured, amounting to 333 cases. Here are some
> conclusions:
>
> • Most fatal crashes (74%) involved a head injury.
> • Nearly all bicyclists who died (97%) were not wearing a helmet.
> • Helmet use was only 3% in fatal crashes, but 13% in non-fatal
> crashes
>
> Source:http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/episrv/episrv-bike-report.pdf
>
> This concatenation of facts suggests very strongly that not wearing a
> helmet may be particularly dangerous.
>
> • It looks like wearing a helmet saved roundabout 33 cyclists or so
> (of the 333 seriously injured for whom helmet use is known) from
> dying.
> • If those who died wore helmets at the same rate of 13% as those in
> the study who survived, a further 22 or so could have lived.
> • If all the fatalities had been wearing a helmet (100%), somewhere
> between 10% and 57% of them would have lived. This number is less firm
> to allow for impacts so heavy that no helmet would have saved the
> cyclist. Still, between 22 and 128 *additional* (to the 33 noted
> above) New Yorkers alive rather than dead for wearing a thirty buck
> helmet is a serious statistical, moral and political consideration
> difficult to overlook.
>
> SO HOW MANY CYCLISTS CAN HELMETS SAVE ACROSS THE NATION?
> New York is not the United States but we're not seeking certainly,
> only investigating whether a moral imperative for action appears.
>
> First off, the 52,000 cyclists hurt cannot be directly related to the
> very serious injuries which were the only ones counted in the New York
> compilation. But a fatality is a fatality anywhere and the fraction of
> head injuries in the fatalities is pretty constant.
>
> So, with a caution, we can say that of 716 cycling fatalities
> nationwide, helmet use could have saved at least 70 and very likely
> more towards a possible upper limit of around 400. Again the
> statistical extension must be tempered by the knowledge that some
> impacts are so heavy that no helmet can save the cyclist. Still, if
> even half the impacts resulting in fatal head trauma is too heavy for
> a helmet to mitigate, possibly around 235 cyclists might live rather
> than die on the roads for simply wearing a helmet. Every year. That's
> an instant reduction in cyclist road fatalities of one third. Once
> more we have arrived at a statistical, moral and political fact that
> is hard to ignore: Helmet wear could save many lives.
>
> THE CASE AGAINST MANDATORY HELMET LAWS
>
> • Compulsion is anti-Constitutional, an assault on the freedom of the
> citizen to choose his own manner of living and dying
> • Many other actitivities cause fatal head injuries. So why not insist
> they should all be put in helmets?
> • 37% of bicycle fatalities involve alcohol, and 23% were legally
> drunk, and you'll never get these drunks in helmets anyway
> • We should leave the drunks to their fate; they're not real cyclists
> anyway
> • Helmets are not perfect anyway
> • Helmets cause cyclists to stop cycling, which is a cost to society
> in health losses
> • Many more motorists die on the roads than cyclists. Why not insist
> that motorists wear helmets inside their cars?
> • Helmets don't save lives -- that's a myth put forward by commercial
> helmet makers
> • Helmets are too heavily promoted
> • Helmet makers overstate the benefits of helmets
> • A helmet makes me look like a dork
> • Too few cyclists will be saved to make the cost worthwhile
>
> THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY HELMET LAW IN THE STATES
> • 235 or more additional cyclists' lives saved
> • 716 deaths of cyclists on the road when a third or more of those
> deaths can easily be avoided is a national disgrace
> • Education has clearly failed
> • Anti-helmet zealots in the face of the evidence from New York are
> still advising cyclists not to wear helmets
> • An example to the next generation of cyclists
> • A visible sign of a commitment to cycling safety, which may attract
> more people to cycling
>
> © Copyright Andre Jute 2010. Free for reproduction in non-profit
> journals and sites as long as the entire article is reproduced in full
> including this copyright and permission notice.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:42 pm
From: Anton Berlin


It's a decent argument but I like Darwin's law to work here. As long
as society doesn't have to pay for spoon feeding them over the next 50
years.


== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 8:35 pm
From: Andre Jute


On Aug 17, 3:42 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's a decent argument but I like Darwin's law to work here.  

Okay, we've considered the upside (or I have, on RBT alone), so let's
look at the downside, and at the cost of partial success.

> As long
> as society doesn't have to pay for spoon feeding them over the next 50
> years.

You could have a point there.

From the report http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/episrv/episrv-bike-report.pdf
"Serious injuries are defined as injuries that require the bicyclist
to be taken to the hospital, and may include amputation, concussion,
internal bleeding, severe burns, fracture and dislocation."

It seems pretty clear to me that many of these injured cyclists will
run out of insurance long before they come to the end of their
requirement for treatment. So the thirty buck helmet, in saving them
from death merely to turn them into a cripple could cost society
plenty.

Maybe the government should ban bike helmets altogether. Let the
carnage commence as soon Mr Obama drops his hankie.

Permit me to make a modest proposal. We could give a weekly prize on
television to the driver who has run over *and killed* most cyclists
with his SUV. Every driver will receive, with his driving licence, a
scorecard, on which merely crippling rather than killing a cyclist
will score a negative number. Reversing to finish the job, while
unsporting, will not be against the rules.

So as to waste nothing, we could freeze bodies and ship them out to
Polynesia and certain parts of Africa as delicacies to relieve the
natives of an unvarying diet of their neighbours and relatives.

You could be onto something here, Anton. You're in the right company:
that great humanitarian eugenicist, Frank Krygowski, has already
repeatedly advised that we should leave the drinkers (37 per cent of
bicycle fatalities) to their fate at the hands of motorists.

Jonathan Swift
Dean
St. Patrick's Cathedral
Dublin


== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 9:41 pm
From: snogfest


On Aug 17, 12:58 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sorry, didn't mean to leave the rest of you guys off.
>
> On Aug 17, 12:43 am, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY CYCLE HELMET LAW
> > (IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
> > by Andre Jute
>
> > It is a risible myth that your average American is a tall-walking free
> > individual untrammeled by government: he is in fact just as much
> > constricted as a European soft-socialist consumerist or Japanese
> > collective citizen, though it is true that the American is controlled
> > in different areas of his activity than the European or the Japanese.
> > To some the uncontrolled areas of American life, for instance the
> > ability to own and use firearms, smacks of barbarism rather than
> > liberty. In this article I examine whether the lack of a mandatory
> > bicycle helmet law in the USA is barbaric or an emanation of that
> > rugged liberty more evident in rhetoric than reality.
>
> > Any case for intervention by the state must be made on moral and
> > statistical grounds. Examples are driving licences, crush zones on
> > cars, seatbelts, age restrictions on alcohol sales, and a million
> > other interventions, all now accepted unremarked in the States as part
> > of the regulatory landscape, but all virulently opposed in their day.
>
> > HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING?
> > Surprisingly, cycling can be argued to be "safe enough", given only
> > that one is willing to count the intangible benefits of health through
> > exercise, generally acknowledged as substantial. Here I shall make no
> > effort to quantify those health benefits because the argument I'm
> > putting forward is conclusively made by harder statistics and
> > unexceptional general morality.
>
> > In the representative year of 2008, the last for which comprehesive
> > data is available, 716 cyclists died on US roads, and 52,000 were
> > injured.
>
> > Source: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
>
> > The most convenient way to grasp the meaning of these statistics is to
> > compare cycling with motoring, the latter ipso facto by motorists'
> > average mileage accepted by most Americans as safe enough.
>
> > Compared to a motorist a cyclist is:
> > 11 times MORE likely to die PER MILE travelled
> > 2.9 times MORE likely to die PER TRIP taken
>
> > By adding information about the relative frequency/length/duration of
> > journeys of cyclists and motorists, we can further conclude that in
> > the US:
>
> > Compared to a motorist, a cyclist is:
> > 3 to 4 times MORE likely to die PER HOUR riding
> > 3 to 4 times LESS likely to die IN A YEAR's riding
>
> > Source:http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.ta.org.br/site/Banco/7man...
>
> > It is the last number, that the average cyclist is 3 to 4 times less
> > likely to die in a year's riding than a motorist, and enjoys all the
> > benefits of healthy exercise, that permits us to ignore the greater
> > per mile/per trip/per hour danger.
>
> > This gives us the overall perspective but says nothing about wearing a
> > cycling helmet.
>
> > HELMET WEAR AT THE EXTREME END OF CYCLING RISK
>
> > What we really want to know is: what chance of the helmet saving your
> > life? The authorities in New York made a compilation covering the
> > years 1996 to 2003 of all the deaths (225) and serious injuries
> > (3,462) in cycling accidents in all New York City. The purpose of the
> > study was an overview usable for city development planning, not helmet
> > advocacy, so helmet usage was only noted for part of the period among
> > the seriously injured, amounting to 333 cases. Here are some
> > conclusions:
>
> > • Most fatal crashes (74%) involved a head injury.
> > • Nearly all bicyclists who died (97%) were not wearing a helmet.
> > • Helmet use was only 3% in fatal crashes, but 13% in non-fatal
> > crashes
>
> > Source:http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/episrv/episrv-bike-report.pdf
>
> > This concatenation of facts suggests very strongly that not wearing a
> > helmet may be particularly dangerous.
>
> > • It looks like wearing a helmet saved roundabout 33 cyclists or so
> > (of the 333 seriously injured for whom helmet use is known) from
> > dying.
> > • If those who died wore helmets at the same rate of 13% as those in
> > the study who survived, a further 22 or so could have lived.
> > • If all the fatalities had been wearing a helmet (100%), somewhere
> > between 10% and 57% of them would have lived. This number is less firm
> > to allow for impacts so heavy that no helmet would have saved the
> > cyclist. Still, between 22 and 128 *additional* (to the 33 noted
> > above) New Yorkers alive rather than dead for wearing a thirty buck
> > helmet is a serious statistical, moral and political consideration
> > difficult to overlook.
>
> > SO HOW MANY CYCLISTS CAN HELMETS SAVE ACROSS THE NATION?
> > New York is not the United States but we're not seeking certainly,
> > only investigating whether a moral imperative for action appears.
>
> > First off, the 52,000 cyclists hurt cannot be directly related to the
> > very serious injuries which were the only ones counted in the New York
> > compilation. But a fatality is a fatality anywhere and the fraction of
> > head injuries in the fatalities is pretty constant.
>
> > So, with a caution, we can say that of 716 cycling fatalities
> > nationwide, helmet use could have saved at least 70 and very likely
> > more towards a possible upper limit of around 400. Again the
> > statistical extension must be tempered by the knowledge that some
> > impacts are so heavy that no helmet can save the cyclist. Still, if
> > even half the impacts resulting in fatal head trauma is too heavy for
> > a helmet to mitigate, possibly around 235 cyclists might live rather
> > than die on the roads for simply wearing a helmet. Every year. That's
> > an instant reduction in cyclist road fatalities of one third. Once
> > more we have arrived at a statistical, moral and political fact that
> > is hard to ignore: Helmet wear could save many lives.
>
> > THE CASE AGAINST MANDATORY HELMET LAWS
>
> > • Compulsion is anti-Constitutional, an assault on the freedom of the
> > citizen to choose his own manner of living and dying
> > • Many other actitivities cause fatal head injuries. So why not insist
> > they should all be put in helmets?
> > • 37% of bicycle fatalities involve alcohol, and 23% were legally
> > drunk, and you'll never get these drunks in helmets anyway
> > • We should leave the drunks to their fate; they're not real cyclists
> > anyway
> > • Helmets are not perfect anyway
> > • Helmets cause cyclists to stop cycling, which is a cost to society
> > in health losses
> > • Many more motorists die on the roads than cyclists. Why not insist
> > that motorists wear helmets inside their cars?
> > • Helmets don't save lives -- that's a myth put forward by commercial
> > helmet makers
> > • Helmets are too heavily promoted
> > • Helmet makers overstate the benefits of helmets
> > • A helmet makes me look like a dork
> > • Too few cyclists will be saved to make the cost worthwhile
>
> > THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY HELMET LAW IN THE STATES
> > • 235 or more additional cyclists' lives saved
> > • 716 deaths of cyclists on the road when a third or more of those
> > deaths can easily be avoided is a national disgrace
> > • Education has clearly failed
> > • Anti-helmet zealots in the face of the evidence from New York are
> > still advising cyclists not to wear helmets
> > • An example to the next generation of cyclists
> > • A visible sign of a commitment to cycling safety, which may attract
> > more people to cycling
>
> > © Copyright Andre Jute 2010. Free for reproduction in non-profit
> > journals and sites as long as the entire article is reproduced in full
> > including this copyright and permission notice.

experience shows that the people who agree (with wearing helmets) are
already wearing them.
It is compulsory here (NZL), it was a *huge* non-event when the law
was changed. Same as motorcycle helmet laws back in the 70's. We are
quite pragmatic like that.
IT JUST MAKES SENSE.
You can tout all the stat's that you like (and you have, scary
stuff!), but the bottom line is, do you want a small barrier between
the top of your ears and the top of your head and "hard things".
I would like to have the choice not to, and I sometimes do (not wear
one), but have to admit, if it was optional, I probably would not,
except when training or racing (stupid logic, I know).
We have a no-blame/no-fault system here (no lawyers chasing
ambulances) paid for by public funds/levies/taxes. Not much chance of
this happening in the US of A.
I'd also like to see cyclists carrying some sort of indemnity
insurance (even in this country).


== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 9:46 pm
From: Superfly TNT


On Aug 16, 5:58 pm, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Sorry, didn't mean to leave the rest of you guys off.
>
> On Aug 17, 12:43 am, Andre Jute <fiult...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY CYCLE HELMET LAW
> > (IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
> > by Andre Jute
>
> > It is a risible myth that your average American is a tall-walking free
> > individual untrammeled by government: he is in fact just as much
> > constricted as a European soft-socialist consumerist or Japanese
> > collective citizen, though it is true that the American is controlled
> > in different areas of his activity than the European or the Japanese.
> > To some the uncontrolled areas of American life, for instance the
> > ability to own and use firearms, smacks of barbarism rather than
> > liberty. In this article I examine whether the lack of a mandatory
> > bicycle helmet law in the USA is barbaric or an emanation of that
> > rugged liberty more evident in rhetoric than reality.
>
> > Any case for intervention by the state must be made on moral and
> > statistical grounds. Examples are driving licences, crush zones on
> > cars, seatbelts, age restrictions on alcohol sales, and a million
> > other interventions, all now accepted unremarked in the States as part
> > of the regulatory landscape, but all virulently opposed in their day.
>
> > HOW DANGEROUS IS CYCLING?
> > Surprisingly, cycling can be argued to be "safe enough", given only
> > that one is willing to count the intangible benefits of health through
> > exercise, generally acknowledged as substantial. Here I shall make no
> > effort to quantify those health benefits because the argument I'm
> > putting forward is conclusively made by harder statistics and
> > unexceptional general morality.
>
> > In the representative year of 2008, the last for which comprehesive
> > data is available, 716 cyclists died on US roads, and 52,000 were
> > injured.
>
> > Source: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
>
> > The most convenient way to grasp the meaning of these statistics is to
> > compare cycling with motoring, the latter ipso facto by motorists'
> > average mileage accepted by most Americans as safe enough.
>
> > Compared to a motorist a cyclist is:
> > 11 times MORE likely to die PER MILE travelled
> > 2.9 times MORE likely to die PER TRIP taken
>
> > By adding information about the relative frequency/length/duration of
> > journeys of cyclists and motorists, we can further conclude that in
> > the US:
>
> > Compared to a motorist, a cyclist is:
> > 3 to 4 times MORE likely to die PER HOUR riding
> > 3 to 4 times LESS likely to die IN A YEAR's riding
>
> > Source:http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://www.ta.org.br/site/Banco/7man...
>
> > It is the last number, that the average cyclist is 3 to 4 times less
> > likely to die in a year's riding than a motorist, and enjoys all the
> > benefits of healthy exercise, that permits us to ignore the greater
> > per mile/per trip/per hour danger.
>
> > This gives us the overall perspective but says nothing about wearing a
> > cycling helmet.
>
> > HELMET WEAR AT THE EXTREME END OF CYCLING RISK
>
> > What we really want to know is: what chance of the helmet saving your
> > life? The authorities in New York made a compilation covering the
> > years 1996 to 2003 of all the deaths (225) and serious injuries
> > (3,462) in cycling accidents in all New York City. The purpose of the
> > study was an overview usable for city development planning, not helmet
> > advocacy, so helmet usage was only noted for part of the period among
> > the seriously injured, amounting to 333 cases. Here are some
> > conclusions:
>
> > • Most fatal crashes (74%) involved a head injury.
> > • Nearly all bicyclists who died (97%) were not wearing a helmet.
> > • Helmet use was only 3% in fatal crashes, but 13% in non-fatal
> > crashes
>
> > Source:http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/episrv/episrv-bike-report.pdf
>
> > This concatenation of facts suggests very strongly that not wearing a
> > helmet may be particularly dangerous.
>
> > • It looks like wearing a helmet saved roundabout 33 cyclists or so
> > (of the 333 seriously injured for whom helmet use is known) from
> > dying.
> > • If those who died wore helmets at the same rate of 13% as those in
> > the study who survived, a further 22 or so could have lived.
> > • If all the fatalities had been wearing a helmet (100%), somewhere
> > between 10% and 57% of them would have lived. This number is less firm
> > to allow for impacts so heavy that no helmet would have saved the
> > cyclist. Still, between 22 and 128 *additional* (to the 33 noted
> > above) New Yorkers alive rather than dead for wearing a thirty buck
> > helmet is a serious statistical, moral and political consideration
> > difficult to overlook.
>
> > SO HOW MANY CYCLISTS CAN HELMETS SAVE ACROSS THE NATION?
> > New York is not the United States but we're not seeking certainly,
> > only investigating whether a moral imperative for action appears.
>
> > First off, the 52,000 cyclists hurt cannot be directly related to the
> > very serious injuries which were the only ones counted in the New York
> > compilation. But a fatality is a fatality anywhere and the fraction of
> > head injuries in the fatalities is pretty constant.
>
> > So, with a caution, we can say that of 716 cycling fatalities
> > nationwide, helmet use could have saved at least 70 and very likely
> > more towards a possible upper limit of around 400. Again the
> > statistical extension must be tempered by the knowledge that some
> > impacts are so heavy that no helmet can save the cyclist. Still, if
> > even half the impacts resulting in fatal head trauma is too heavy for
> > a helmet to mitigate, possibly around 235 cyclists might live rather
> > than die on the roads for simply wearing a helmet. Every year. That's
> > an instant reduction in cyclist road fatalities of one third. Once
> > more we have arrived at a statistical, moral and political fact that
> > is hard to ignore: Helmet wear could save many lives.
>
> > THE CASE AGAINST MANDATORY HELMET LAWS
>
> > • Compulsion is anti-Constitutional, an assault on the freedom of the
> > citizen to choose his own manner of living and dying
> > • Many other actitivities cause fatal head injuries. So why not insist
> > they should all be put in helmets?
> > • 37% of bicycle fatalities involve alcohol, and 23% were legally
> > drunk, and you'll never get these drunks in helmets anyway
> > • We should leave the drunks to their fate; they're not real cyclists
> > anyway
> > • Helmets are not perfect anyway
> > • Helmets cause cyclists to stop cycling, which is a cost to society
> > in health losses
> > • Many more motorists die on the roads than cyclists. Why not insist
> > that motorists wear helmets inside their cars?
> > • Helmets don't save lives -- that's a myth put forward by commercial
> > helmet makers
> > • Helmets are too heavily promoted
> > • Helmet makers overstate the benefits of helmets
> > • A helmet makes me look like a dork
> > • Too few cyclists will be saved to make the cost worthwhile
>
> > THE CASE FOR A MANDATORY HELMET LAW IN THE STATES
> > • 235 or more additional cyclists' lives saved
> > • 716 deaths of cyclists on the road when a third or more of those
> > deaths can easily be avoided is a national disgrace
> > • Education has clearly failed
> > • Anti-helmet zealots in the face of the evidence from New York are
> > still advising cyclists not to wear helmets
> > • An example to the next generation of cyclists
> > • A visible sign of a commitment to cycling safety, which may attract
> > more people to cycling
>
> > © Copyright Andre Jute 2010. Free for reproduction in non-profit
> > journals and sites as long as the entire article is reproduced in full
> > including this copyright and permission notice.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

.
.
.
I say a law should be passed that requires people in automobiles to
wear a helmet!
.
.
.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Circle the Wagons and Say Nothing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ae360e9ff6cedb02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 6:40 pm
From: --D-y


On Aug 16, 11:30 am, "B. Lafferty" <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> Leipheimer, who is among at least 16 people besides Armstrong whom
> Landis has implicated in various doping acts, declined to discuss the
> investigation Saturday.http://www.skyhidailynews.com/article/20100816/NEWS/100819909/1079&Pa...

You of all people-- well... it is B. Lafferty.
Trying to smear anyone who doesn't "discuss" (comment, etc. etc.)
ongoing investigations, when the good-advice thing ("one reason you
hire a lawyer even if you know you are innocent") seems to *always* be
"don't say anything to anyone outside the circle".

I mean, even someone who hasn't hired a lawyer knows better than to
comment, if he reads the newspapers.

(speaking of) A slow day in Laffland?
--D-y


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:40 pm
From: Anton Berlin


Laff - seriously - I am starting to see everyone's point here. What
do you expect him to do?

Everyone's either figured or been told by counsel to stfu when it
comes to this - the early 'spill the beans' days are over.

Good counsel tells you to shut up because even if you tell the 'truth'
as you know it memory failure and other's bad recollections of what
you said 3 months ago will fuck you up.


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Landis bike mystery solved
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/295bdcdde3bf8036?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:38 pm
From: Anton Berlin


http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Solved-The-mystery-of-the-5-Floyd-Landis-bike?urn=top-262838

Landis laughs and wants a beer.

Every god damn thing I know about Lance Armstrong tells me he would
want you to pay him back at full retail.

Fuck Lance - I'd rather ride with Landis


== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:47 pm
From: TheCoz


On Aug 16, 9:38 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Solved-The-mystery-of-the-5-Floyd-...
>
> Landis laughs and wants a beer.
>
> Every god damn thing I know about Lance Armstrong tells me he would
> want you to pay him back at full retail.
>
> Fuck Lance - I'd rather ride with Landis

They are both beer drinking dopers. Lance has been accused of selling
team gear to supply his drug habit, and me thinks Floyd's bike was
used to cover drug cost. I would rather ride with Liz Hatch, at least
the view would be better.
Coz


== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:51 pm
From: Anton Berlin


On Aug 16, 9:47 pm, TheCoz <cycled...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 16, 9:38 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Solved-The-mystery-of-the-5-Floyd-...
>
> > Landis laughs and wants a beer.
>
> > Every god damn thing I know about Lance Armstrong tells me he would
> > want you to pay him back at full retail.
>
> > Fuck Lance - I'd rather ride with Landis
>
> They are both beer drinking dopers. Lance has been accused of selling
> team gear to supply his drug habit, and me thinks Floyd's bike was
> used to cover drug cost. I would rather ride with Liz Hatch, at least
> the view would be better.
> Coz

Use a condom bro and don't let your weewee get any where near those
ragged jackal teeth of hers


== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 8:54 pm
From: LawBoy01


On Aug 16, 9:51 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Aug 16, 9:47 pm, TheCoz <cycled...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 9:38 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Solved-The-mystery-of-the-5-Floyd-...
>
> > > Landis laughs and wants a beer.
>
> > > Every god damn thing I know about Lance Armstrong tells me he would
> > > want you to pay him back at full retail.
>
> > > Fuck Lance - I'd rather ride with Landis
>
> > They are both beer drinking dopers. Lance has been accused of selling
> > team gear to supply his drug habit, and me thinks Floyd's bike was
> > used to cover drug cost. I would rather ride with Liz Hatch, at least
> > the view would be better.
> > Coz
>
> Use a condom bro and don't let your weewee get any where near those
> ragged jackal teeth of hers- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Liz Hatch looks good to me. I don't get all of the hate around here,
unless it's to hate her for the same reasons tennis fans hate Anna
Kournikova.


== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 9:24 pm
From: snogfest


On Aug 17, 3:54 pm, LawBoy01 <phi...@pwm-law.com> wrote:
> On Aug 16, 9:51 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 16, 9:47 pm, TheCoz <cycled...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 16, 9:38 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > >http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/post/Solved-The-mystery-of-the-5-Floyd-...
>
> > > > Landis laughs and wants a beer.
>
> > > > Every god damn thing I know about Lance Armstrong tells me he would
> > > > want you to pay him back at full retail.
>
> > > > Fuck Lance - I'd rather ride with Landis
>
> > > They are both beer drinking dopers. Lance has been accused of selling
> > > team gear to supply his drug habit, and me thinks Floyd's bike was
> > > used to cover drug cost. I would rather ride with Liz Hatch, at least
> > > the view would be better.
> > > Coz
>
> > Use a condom bro and don't let your weewee get any where near those
> > ragged jackal teeth of hers- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Liz Hatch looks good to me.  I don't get all of the hate around here,
> unless it's to hate her for the same reasons tennis fans hate Anna
> Kournikova.

no, they are just trolls

==============================================================================
TOPIC: My dogma has bad karma
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b0e39c04f63691e7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 16 2010 7:54 pm
From: Anton Berlin


On Aug 16, 2:16 pm, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 16, 2:08 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 16, 6:55 am, Choppy Warburton <choppywarbur...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >http://www.gfisk.com/gallery/BicycleRacing/US-Pro-Criterium-National-...
>
> > The structure in that guy's calf and something about
> > the bike paint job that gives the seatstays a sort of sinuous
> > appearance, creates a pleasing parallel structure that
> > is very aesthetically appealing in the photograph.
> > Nice work, Graham.
>
> Are you suggesting that he sabotaged the course to stage his
> photographs.
>
> That's a cool job.  Sure beats working.
>
> R

Why only 1 photograph of the wreck at this dangerous turn? I would
have camped out there the rest of the day running HD video on it.


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