Monday, January 3, 2011

alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets - 25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

Buzz It
alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets?hl=en

alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Indianapolis Star columnist: Jets Will Win, Some Funny Stuff - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/e34821ac2512fccd?hl=en
* Wildcat - 7 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/daf93da716580e95?hl=en
* How embarrassed is the NFL... - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/84a12107de8fc2bf?hl=en
* Next Sat nite, 8PM... be there... - 6 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/123bfdc2c59444cd?hl=en
* The 3rd winningest season in team history - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1404a2f154a0622d?hl=en
* OT: Charlie Weis to be OC for Florida - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/7793ab0fdbab6713?hl=en
* Confidence? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/80e01f8203eb72c0?hl=en
* OT: Fave in hot water again... Legal paper filed for sexual harassment while
Favre was a Jet - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/bca912847b1f528d?hl=en
* As an aside... - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/746063793acb69b5?hl=en
* OT: Taps for Mangini... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/d062e60952219cc9?hl=en
* Anyone going to Indy? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/ad619c8cb7cfa9d3?hl=en
* The Fans Know... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b785e066a7661046?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Indianapolis Star columnist: Jets Will Win, Some Funny Stuff
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/e34821ac2512fccd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:46 pm
From: JetsLife

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110103/SPORTS/110103021


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wildcat
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/daf93da716580e95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:51 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > the
> > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > changes
> > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game Buffalo
> > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > running
> > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > stuffed...then
> > > a
> > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > the
> > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > always
> > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of the
> > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > endzone.
> > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > use,
> > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > the
> > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was a
> > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation in
> > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > something else.
>
> i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's.  could you ever
> see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up.  The bone
> stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else.  The pure
> option stuff is very complicated today.  There is actually a move the Jets
> use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation.  You
> see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and does
> the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way.  That
> freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to set
> up a block based on that reaction.  The pro game is too much passing...and a
> QB can't get killed doing option stuff.  And....the fans want to see the
> passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
of pace. could such a stunt bare some fruit ??? it would seem that a
cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
of the line. may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead


== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:07 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 3:51 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > > the
> > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > changes
> > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game Buffalo
> > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > running
> > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > stuffed...then
> > > > a
> > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > > the
> > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > always
> > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of the
> > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > endzone.
> > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > > use,
> > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > > the
> > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was a
> > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation in
> > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > something else.
>
> > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's.  could you ever
> > see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> > The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up.  The bone
> > stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else.  The pure
> > option stuff is very complicated today.  There is actually a move the Jets
> > use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation.  You
> > see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and does
> > the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way.  That
> > freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to set
> > up a block based on that reaction.  The pro game is too much passing...and a
> > QB can't get killed doing option stuff.  And....the fans want to see the
> > passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
> of pace.  could such a stunt bare some fruit ???  it would seem that a
> cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
> of the line.  may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
> that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

come to think of it... the modern day screen pass almost seems like a
wish bone play. you get the same sort of effect with defenders
getting used up... and... you dont expose your qb to the channel.
instead of a hand off in the tripple option with three rb's, it is a
short pass inside of a "bunch". i wonder if the screen play has any
roots in the tripple option.


== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:10 pm
From: Grinch


On Jan 3, 2:14 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 1:57 pm, Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 3, 9:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on the
> > > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the changes
> > > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game Buffalo
> > > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of running
> > > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got stuffed...then
> > > > > a
> > > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till the
> > > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost always
> > > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of the
> > > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > > endzone.
> > > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to use,
> > > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was the
> > > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was a
> > > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation in
> > > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > > something else.
>
> > > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > > see a wishbone working in the pros ???- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Re the wishbone in the pros.
>
> > The basic concept of the option O is:
>
> > You leave the D-end unblocked, the OT blocks inward to double-team or
> > cut off the pursuit, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB instead of being out of the play after the handoff is in the
> > play, giving the O an extra player, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB runs in tandem with the RB toward the DE, two player against
> > one, that's *good*...
>
> > If the DE goes for the QB he pitches the ball to the RB who goes
> > outside for a gain in the open field, if the DE goes for the RB the QB
> > keeps the ball and runs inside "through the channel" with LBs to one
> > side, safeties head, DE in pursuit, for a good 5 or 7 yard gain,
> > before they all converge on him in a pile-up -- so you always have one
> > runner with an open route upfield for several yards, which is
> > *good*...
>
> > If your QB running "through the channel" is Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,
> > Drew, Phil, Brett ... Sanchez, etc., thats ***BAAADD!***
>
> > I saw Belichick answer this question once, saying no true option O
> > will ever be a base NFL offense is because
>
> > (1) NFL defensive ends are coached on option plays to take out the RB
> > and make the QB run up inside "through the channel", and ...
>
> > (2) The NFL is a passing league, you have to pass well to win, good
> > passers are very few and cost many millions of dollars, and no coach
> > is ever going to risk his job/team owner is ever going risk his money
> > by having his top passing arm run "through the channel" even three
> > times a game, much less 20+ times a game as his O's base idea.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> i guess with the option, if you have a guy like brad smith or may be
> tebow AND a regular starting qb too, you can safely run the option a
> few times a game with your utililty guy no ???
>
> as far as the wish bone... i was thinking of using a gimmic like 3
> rb's in the wishbone backfield... it does not create additional
> bubbles/gaps like the wild cat or the option, but it creates
> additional blockers for the standard gaps. i started thinking about a
> wish bone gimmic after miami came out with their wild cat. i think it
> would be a shock to a cover two style defense.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm sure an NFL team could run the 'bone or an option of its choice
quite effectively on a limited basis, as a short-yardage or special-
situation or surprise set.

But in the pros you always have the trade off: If you leave your
regular QB on the field to avoid tippping it, move him out to flanker
or somewhere, you're basically playing 10 on 11 and as soon as the D
sees him out there they'll shift up to block the run. While if you
take the QB out to put in your "option package" with a real option QB,
the D will respond by putting in its "anti-option package" that
ignores the pass to really close down the run.

If you have an option QB who can throw like Smith, better for you.
I'd love to see Smith throw more on these plays. But he throws well
only for an option QB not an NFL QB, or he'd be the #2 QB behind
Sanchez. And this is still a pass-to-win league.

Go to the well with the option too often, get predictible with it, the
Ds will develop serious anti-option packages, and the option will go
the way of the run-and-shoot -- a brief period of glory, then back to
special-situation land. You'll bone yourself. There's a reason why
the wishbone has disappeared even from high-level college play.

I still remember an Orange Bowl where Wishbone Nebraska played
Johnson's Pro-Style Miami. Nebraska came out rushing like 7 yards a
carry, really scary impressive. Then they found themselves in one
single third-and-long, and their QB dropped back and threw like a
girl. The Miami players were laughing. That was the end, Miami put
10 in the box and completely closed them down....

I just Googled it to be sure my Alzheimer's wasn't imagining things.
1989, Nebraska averaged 380 yards rushing during the season, #1 in the
country, but got only 80 in the big game. That's what happens when an
option O gets *predictible* against pro-quality coaching and personnel
on D. They also had all of 55 yards passing, lost 23-7. (It didn't
help them any that playing only the 'bone in a 'bone league, their D
never practiced against decent passing and their DBs weren't any
better than their QB.)

That said, on a limited basis I think it could work fine. You might
even use your regular 1st-string QB running it on key plays, to keep a
real passing option and put the D in a real tough spot, if he's
athletic enough.

IIRC, when Warren Moon was on the Oilers they used a wishbone with him
at QB on short-yardage and goal-line situations, until they had some
bad fumbles on pitchouts. And I know that Bill Walsh after he retired
said he regretted not putting in a Single Wing package for Steve
Young. But it says something that when he had the chance he thought
about it and still didn't do it. What would 20 successful Single Wing
plays with Young be worth compared to one play where he's carried of
the field on a stretcher?

FWIW, one of my favorite anecdotes from the long history of Jets
misery dates to the great year when Lou Holtz coached them. He
thought, why should I be constrained by NFL dogma? I'll put in the
veer offense and surprise them all! He brought a veer QB into camp to
run it. Walt Michaels was the DC, and he wasn't about to have his D
be embarrassed by a college option offense even in camp. He had that
QB carried off the field on a stretcher in the first week of practice.
That was the end of the short run of the veer in the NFL.

That story via Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0SG6Ps7vk4C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=Lou+Holtz+Walt+Michaels+veer&source=bl&ots=jd3bwfllSX&sig=lVkWNVMzqqnNWXPpAWajDf83fKk&hl=en&ei=FSoiTa6ZBYH0swPCh9i5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lou%20Holtz%20Walt%20Michaels%20veer&f=false

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:08 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ddc8a6b3-970f-4ab9-b0a7-49fca8c57a7e@g26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > the
> > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > changes
> > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > Buffalo
> > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > running
> > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > stuffed...then
> > > a
> > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > the
> > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > always
> > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of
> > > the
> > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > endzone.
> > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > use,
> > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > the
> > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was
> > a
> > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation
> > in
> > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > something else.
>
> i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up. The
> bone
> stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else. The pure
> option stuff is very complicated today. There is actually a move the Jets
> use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation. You
> see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and does
> the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way. That
> freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to set
> up a block based on that reaction. The pro game is too much passing...and
> a
> QB can't get killed doing option stuff. And....the fans want to see the
> passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide quoted
> text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
of pace. could such a stunt bare some fruit ??? it would seem that a
cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
of the line. may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead

Some people have done it...but you need a back who has ball handling
skills...and it seems quite a few of them have problems just holding on to
the damn thing. When I see some of these defenses on passing downs, I often
wonder why they don't run an old Greenbay Sweep....and do it weak...they
don't have the people to stop it.


== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:11 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0c13a056-7071-44e1-a611-e7e8d147c814@n29g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 3:51 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB
> > > > on
> > > > the
> > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > changes
> > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > > Buffalo
> > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > running
> > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > stuffed...then
> > > > a
> > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play
> > > > till
> > > > the
> > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > always
> > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of
> > > > the
> > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > endzone.
> > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > > use,
> > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred
> > > > was
> > > > the
> > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it
> > > was a
> > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation
> > > in
> > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something
> > > works
> > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > something else.
>
> > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> > The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up. The
> > bone
> > stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else. The
> > pure
> > option stuff is very complicated today. There is actually a move the
> > Jets
> > use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation.
> > You
> > see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and
> > does
> > the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way. That
> > freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to
> > set
> > up a block based on that reaction. The pro game is too much
> > passing...and a
> > QB can't get killed doing option stuff. And....the fans want to see the
> > passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
> of pace. could such a stunt bare some fruit ??? it would seem that a
> cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
> of the line. may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
> that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

come to think of it... the modern day screen pass almost seems like a
wish bone play. you get the same sort of effect with defenders
getting used up... and... you dont expose your qb to the channel.
instead of a hand off in the tripple option with three rb's, it is a
short pass inside of a "bunch". i wonder if the screen play has any
roots in the tripple option.

LOL...I just thought, "Damn, I'm old enough that the modern screen pass
looks like the crap we did in high school." If you really want to get into
some research, get some books on the original T offense....the fullhouse
backfield with a fullback behind a QB and two half backs often did work like
the bone, veer and all that other stuff....once upon a time there was an
offense called "Fly-T Offense"....it did a lot of the things that eventually
became bone and veer stuff and did have an option component in it...however,
a lot of the time the option look was predetermined. I learned a lot of
that offense decades ago and I think it could be very effective at some
levels today.


== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:24 pm
From: Grinch


On Jan 3, 3:16 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Grinch" <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a8d15afb-f088-4dc4-bd51-8d58d24a393a@fu15g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 9:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > > the
> > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > changes
> > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > > Buffalo
> > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > running
> > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > stuffed...then
> > > > a
> > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > > the
> > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > always
> > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of
> > > > the
> > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > endzone.
> > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > > use,
> > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > > the
> > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was
> > > a
> > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation
> > > in
> > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > something else.
>
> > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > see a wishbone working in the pros ???- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Re the wishbone in the pros.
>
> The basic concept of the option O is:
>
> You leave the D-end unblocked, the OT blocks inward to double-team or
> cut off the pursuit, that's *good* ....
>
> The QB instead of being out of the play after the handoff is in the
> play, giving the O an extra player, that's *good* ....
>
> The QB runs in tandem with the RB toward the DE, two player against
> one, that's *good*...
>
> If the DE goes for the QB he pitches the ball to the RB who goes
> outside for a gain in the open field, if the DE goes for the RB the QB
> keeps the ball and runs inside "through the channel" with LBs to one
> side, safeties head, DE in pursuit, for a good 5 or 7 yard gain,
> before they all converge on him in a pile-up -- so you always have one
> runner with an open route upfield for several yards, which is
> *good*...
>
> If your QB running "through the channel" is Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,
> Drew, Phil, Brett ... Sanchez, etc., thats ***BAAADD!***
>
> I saw Belichick answer this question once, saying no true option O
> will ever be a base NFL offense is because
>
> (1) NFL defensive ends are coached on option plays to take out the RB
> and make the QB run up inside "through the channel", and ...
>
> (2) The NFL is a passing league, you have to pass well to win, good
> passers are very few and cost many millions of dollars, and no coach
> is ever going to risk his job/team owner is ever going risk his money
> by having his top passing arm run "through the channel" even three
> times a game, much less 20+ times a game as his O's base idea.
> ---
> Good description of an option offense...the basics that set everything else
> up.  And good explanation of why it will not come into the NFL.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks. What, last week(?) Peyton Manning ran a beautiful naked
bootleg from mid-field. Surprised everyone, me, the camera crew, the
D. He was all alone by himself chugging along, gone about 25 yards,
it looked like even he could go the length ... then one defender came
within 10 yards of him and he took a dive and curled up like a
hedgehog. I think it's going to be a while before we see real option
Os run by first-team QBs in the NFL. :-)

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:38 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Grinch" <oldnasty@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:87a6467c-2652-4cfb-9700-02154abd7de0@f20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 2:14 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 1:57 pm, Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 3, 9:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the
> > > > > QB on the
> > > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > > changes
> > > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > > > Buffalo
> > > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > > running
> > > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > > stuffed...then
> > > > > a
> > > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play
> > > > > till the
> > > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > > always
> > > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking
> > > > > of the
> > > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > > endzone.
> > > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option
> > > > > to use,
> > > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred
> > > > > was the
> > > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just
> > > > so
> > > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that
> > > > can
> > > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it
> > > > was a
> > > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular
> > > > formation in
> > > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something
> > > > works
> > > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > > something else.
>
> > > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > > see a wishbone working in the pros ???- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Re the wishbone in the pros.
>
> > The basic concept of the option O is:
>
> > You leave the D-end unblocked, the OT blocks inward to double-team or
> > cut off the pursuit, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB instead of being out of the play after the handoff is in the
> > play, giving the O an extra player, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB runs in tandem with the RB toward the DE, two player against
> > one, that's *good*...
>
> > If the DE goes for the QB he pitches the ball to the RB who goes
> > outside for a gain in the open field, if the DE goes for the RB the QB
> > keeps the ball and runs inside "through the channel" with LBs to one
> > side, safeties head, DE in pursuit, for a good 5 or 7 yard gain,
> > before they all converge on him in a pile-up -- so you always have one
> > runner with an open route upfield for several yards, which is
> > *good*...
>
> > If your QB running "through the channel" is Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,
> > Drew, Phil, Brett ... Sanchez, etc., thats ***BAAADD!***
>
> > I saw Belichick answer this question once, saying no true option O
> > will ever be a base NFL offense is because
>
> > (1) NFL defensive ends are coached on option plays to take out the RB
> > and make the QB run up inside "through the channel", and ...
>
> > (2) The NFL is a passing league, you have to pass well to win, good
> > passers are very few and cost many millions of dollars, and no coach
> > is ever going to risk his job/team owner is ever going risk his money
> > by having his top passing arm run "through the channel" even three
> > times a game, much less 20+ times a game as his O's base idea.- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> i guess with the option, if you have a guy like brad smith or may be
> tebow AND a regular starting qb too, you can safely run the option a
> few times a game with your utililty guy no ???
>
> as far as the wish bone... i was thinking of using a gimmic like 3
> rb's in the wishbone backfield... it does not create additional
> bubbles/gaps like the wild cat or the option, but it creates
> additional blockers for the standard gaps. i started thinking about a
> wish bone gimmic after miami came out with their wild cat. i think it
> would be a shock to a cover two style defense.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm sure an NFL team could run the 'bone or an option of its choice
quite effectively on a limited basis, as a short-yardage or special-
situation or surprise set.

But in the pros you always have the trade off: If you leave your
regular QB on the field to avoid tippping it, move him out to flanker
or somewhere, you're basically playing 10 on 11 and as soon as the D
sees him out there they'll shift up to block the run. While if you
take the QB out to put in your "option package" with a real option QB,
the D will respond by putting in its "anti-option package" that
ignores the pass to really close down the run.

If you have an option QB who can throw like Smith, better for you.
I'd love to see Smith throw more on these plays. But he throws well
only for an option QB not an NFL QB, or he'd be the #2 QB behind
Sanchez. And this is still a pass-to-win league.

Go to the well with the option too often, get predictible with it, the
Ds will develop serious anti-option packages, and the option will go
the way of the run-and-shoot -- a brief period of glory, then back to
special-situation land. You'll bone yourself. There's a reason why
the wishbone has disappeared even from high-level college play.

I still remember an Orange Bowl where Wishbone Nebraska played
Johnson's Pro-Style Miami. Nebraska came out rushing like 7 yards a
carry, really scary impressive. Then they found themselves in one
single third-and-long, and their QB dropped back and threw like a
girl. The Miami players were laughing. That was the end, Miami put
10 in the box and completely closed them down....

I just Googled it to be sure my Alzheimer's wasn't imagining things.
1989, Nebraska averaged 380 yards rushing during the season, #1 in the
country, but got only 80 in the big game. That's what happens when an
option O gets *predictible* against pro-quality coaching and personnel
on D. They also had all of 55 yards passing, lost 23-7. (It didn't
help them any that playing only the 'bone in a 'bone league, their D
never practiced against decent passing and their DBs weren't any
better than their QB.)

That said, on a limited basis I think it could work fine. You might
even use your regular 1st-string QB running it on key plays, to keep a
real passing option and put the D in a real tough spot, if he's
athletic enough.

IIRC, when Warren Moon was on the Oilers they used a wishbone with him
at QB on short-yardage and goal-line situations, until they had some
bad fumbles on pitchouts. And I know that Bill Walsh after he retired
said he regretted not putting in a Single Wing package for Steve
Young. But it says something that when he had the chance he thought
about it and still didn't do it. What would 20 successful Single Wing
plays with Young be worth compared to one play where he's carried of
the field on a stretcher?

FWIW, one of my favorite anecdotes from the long history of Jets
misery dates to the great year when Lou Holtz coached them. He
thought, why should I be constrained by NFL dogma? I'll put in the
veer offense and surprise them all! He brought a veer QB into camp to
run it. Walt Michaels was the DC, and he wasn't about to have his D
be embarrassed by a college option offense even in camp. He had that
QB carried off the field on a stretcher in the first week of practice.
That was the end of the short run of the veer in the NFL.

That story via Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0SG6Ps7vk4C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=Lou+Holtz+Walt+Michaels+veer&source=bl&ots=jd3bwfllSX&sig=lVkWNVMzqqnNWXPpAWajDf83fKk&hl=en&ei=FSoiTa6ZBYH0swPCh9i5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lou%20Holtz%20Walt%20Michaels%20veer&f=false


I heard about that Holtz episode. I met Holtz a few times and on one
occasion at a clinic when he was caught off guard and we saw a not very nice
guy. I like all of what you say here. Good analysis. The overall team
speed in the NFL causes problems for a bone type option offense....BUT...I
really think you uncovered some things that they do not take advantage of.
A few times when Miami ran the Wildcat continuously, it would wear the
defense down quite a bit. I think a well executed Wildcat, pistol....guys
like Smith doing it could be very difficult to defend for a period of
time.....what I can't understand is when it works and then they stop doing
it. I come from the school of make them stop it, run it and run it till
they stop it, and by doing so they often show another weakness...and then
you come back with the other components of the scheme. I don't think it
works well as the field shortens and you can get more defenders to the point
of attack...but it can really wear a defense down and confuse them
especially run in a series with no huddle stuff. I have done some research
on no huddle offense and it is interesting stuff. Coslett had a role in it.
I also don't see why for at least a play, not running it as a series, you
couldn't send the QB (Sanchez) out to the wide split position and just have
him leave the field and a replacement come on going right to his spot. It
is not illegal, and the guy coming on would know the play....that does not
allow for the D to adjust and it puts a real threat out there. Remember the
old Lonely End stuff?


==============================================================================
TOPIC: How embarrassed is the NFL...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/84a12107de8fc2bf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:53 pm
From: JetsLife


On Jan 3, 10:21 am, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> ...by having a team with a losing record in the playoffs? If you go to
> NFL.com, and then to the page with the playoff schedule, in the section
> where they list the seeding order for the playoff teams every team shows
> their won-lost record in parentheses after their name - except one.
> Seattle is listed only as NFC West champion.
> --
> graybeard

At a minimum the NFL should determine playoffs seeds via W-L. With
only 37.5% of the schedule being division games it makes sense.


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:05 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"JetsLife" <JetsLife@aol.com> wrote in message
news:da38ed50-4866-4be6-8d2d-1a4a129d877a@l22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 10:21 am, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> ...by having a team with a losing record in the playoffs? If you go to
> NFL.com, and then to the page with the playoff schedule, in the section
> where they list the seeding order for the playoff teams every team shows
> their won-lost record in parentheses after their name - except one.
> Seattle is listed only as NFC West champion.
> --
> graybeard

At a minimum the NFL should determine playoffs seeds via W-L. With
only 37.5% of the schedule being division games it makes sense.

Well put....the division thing has become very irrelevant in some ways.
Maybe, they could keep four conferences playing amongst themselves for the
most part. In this day and age they do not need to be geographic either.
Then the winners come out of conferences and the playoffs begin. It makes
more sense in terms of teams actually winning and would produce the best of
a group...and then on to the next level. Only a thought.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Next Sat nite, 8PM... be there...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/123bfdc2c59444cd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:11 pm
From: John C TX


X-No-Archive: Yes

> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.

or in my case a hurricane & twisters..

:)


== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:01 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"John C TX" <johnctxjets@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
>> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> :)

So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it all....hurricanes,
an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing cold
with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere, crime,
troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot the
sink holes and bad air quality :-)


== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 4:56 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > :)
>
> So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it all....hurricanes,
> an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing cold
> with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere, crime,
> troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets.  Oh....I forgot the
> sink holes and bad air quality :-)

and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
bread box


== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 7:38 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3ee9cba1-f352-48f1-b2d2-0560457ccf85@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > :)
>
> So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it
> all....hurricanes,
> an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing
> cold
> with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere,
> crime,
> troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot
> the
> sink holes and bad air quality :-)

and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
bread box

ummm...I put highest taxes....BUT...we have the highest paid police force on
the East Coast in my town...so Hah ! Another thing we forgot....lots and
lots of brand new office and corporate parks / headquarters with nobody in
them...just some great big money write offs. The State motto should be
"Turning cornfields into condos and parks into parking lots....that's NJ."


== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 8:02 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 10:38 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:3ee9cba1-f352-48f1-b2d2-0560457ccf85@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> > >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > > :)
>
> > So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it
> > all....hurricanes,
> > an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing
> > cold
> > with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere,
> > crime,
> > troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> > like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot
> > the
> > sink holes and bad air quality :-)
>
> and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
> bread box
>
> ummm...I put highest taxes....BUT...we have the highest paid police force on
> the East Coast in my town...so Hah !  Another thing we forgot....lots and
> lots of brand new office and corporate parks / headquarters with nobody in
> them...just some great big money write offs.  The State motto should be
> "Turning cornfields into condos and parks into parking lots....that's NJ."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

good motto...

and... we should no longer be the "garden state"... change that to
"The Corrupt Shit Heel State"


== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 8:37 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:d8c84223-689f-41b2-a3db-4fef99c718b0@f8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 10:38 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:3ee9cba1-f352-48f1-b2d2-0560457ccf85@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does
> > >> not
> > >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > > :)
>
> > So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it
> > all....hurricanes,
> > an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing
> > cold
> > with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere,
> > crime,
> > troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> > like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot
> > the
> > sink holes and bad air quality :-)
>
> and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
> bread box
>
> ummm...I put highest taxes....BUT...we have the highest paid police force
> on
> the East Coast in my town...so Hah ! Another thing we forgot....lots and
> lots of brand new office and corporate parks / headquarters with nobody in
> them...just some great big money write offs. The State motto should be
> "Turning cornfields into condos and parks into parking lots....that's
> NJ."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

good motto...

and... we should no longer be the "garden state"... change that to
"The Corrupt Shit Heel State"

I like, "You figure it out in the blizzard...I'm going to Disney World."
"So what if you don't have books to use, teach them something else."
Or...."If you can't afford the property taxes, sell it and move." Living
near and around a lot of the State offices can be very enlightening. Some
of the clowns who got jobs the last time around definitely fit your
suggestion....I love the "commisioners" who have ZERO experience in the area
they are in charge of. Hey, I have a good idea...let's sell the Turnpike !

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The 3rd winningest season in team history
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1404a2f154a0622d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:13 pm
From: JetsLife


On Jan 2, 4:14 pm, Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 1968: 11-3, .786
> 1998: 12-4, .750
> 2010: 11-5, .688
> 1985: 11-5, .688
>
> (OK, tied for 3rd-4th.)
>
> In 51 seasons.
>
> SOJ.  Not.

Indeed. Unfortunately this also speaks to the Jets' dearth of success
historically.

But we're in the here and now, 11 wins is a good regular season.

The 2-3 games I'd really like back/the Jets coulda won were the home
losses/horrendous offensive performances to Miami, Green Bay and
Baltimore. If the offense produces just a little more for the winning
points v. Miami, Baltimore & GB, the Jets woulda claimed the division
and No. 1 seed, IINM. The defense was up and down this year, but aside
from NE game 2 it kept the Jets in every game.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Charlie Weis to be OC for Florida
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/7793ab0fdbab6713?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:05 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"John C TX" <johnctxjets@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fc7db3c-5c19-4fec-89f8-8e20f64b5d0b@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > The colleges bid another top name away from the pros.
>
> > Ah, "amateur" sports!
>
> Some theories:
>
> 1. Weis likes the college hours.
>
> Yes to this...he likes the college atmosphere too. He is a guy who went
> from high school to NY Giants in no time at all, he is from around here.
>
> 2. He doesn't like answering to a guy who knows less and thinks he is
> an OC.
>
> I wouldn't bet on this one...they know each other well...and are friends
> on
> and off the field, long history.
>
> 3. Haley didn't like having a more knowledgeable coach around.
>
> Weiss wants to be a colleg HC again I'll bet...and he likes the younger
> players and developing them.

#1 is most likely & he may wish to be HC again but he has seen the pro
life and the hours it entails & the shorter easier time commitment of
college football. If someone is going to pay you great money in a
great program, why not? We should ask Spurrier what he thinks?

:)

Some of those college coaches do put in outrageous hours...and do a LOT of
recruiting, the image factor is harder to deal with :-) Look at how they
can behave in the NFL etc. But....it is a much nicer atmosphere. I would
imagine he has some health concerns too and college will be nicer to him.
I'd rather live in Florida than KC too...except for the food...then I'll
take KC. I do like that BBQ. Oh...and the music. :-)

As for #2 & #3, #2 is certainly a possibility if Haley was very
involved in the offense, but is entirely speculation on my part.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Confidence?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/80e01f8203eb72c0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 3:00 pm
From: "JKConey"


I've been beggin' all year for Rex to use McKnight as a change of pace
guy, and also some of the other DB's. I'm hoping that now he has enough
confidence to start shuttling these guys in and out, to make Peyton, "I'm
not doing enough commercials", Manning have to deal with additional bodies
and tendencies. Let's face it, with no rush, they need to do something
different or we'll need 40 to win.

--

www.myconeyislandmemories.com


==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Fave in hot water again... Legal paper filed for sexual harassment
while Favre was a Jet
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/bca912847b1f528d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 4:26 pm
From: Michael


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Former-Jets-massage-therapists-sue-Brett-Favre-sexual-harassment-010311

Sounds like things are being just a tad bit embellished for the sake
of their legal paper

"Favre "responded in an inappropriate manner and refused to
apologize," the filing says.

"He essentially told him to go away and as a celebrity he couldn't be
bothered with the little people," said the therapists' lawyer, David
Jarosclawicz."


==============================================================================
TOPIC: As an aside...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/746063793acb69b5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 5:07 pm
From: buRford


On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 15:34:37 -0500, "papa.carl44" <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:

>
>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>news:o5d3i6d3lm76c0vj2arlqfguap2fp5pmaa@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 00:05:17 -0500, "papa.carl44"
>> <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>>>news:5sf2i6to9nsi0hqjvnde3fv8lmcegs33up@4ax.com...
>>>> Would love to see Shonn get the number of carries McKnight had today...
>>>> just once this
>>>> season. I loved the pick up of LT, but that was with the thinking
>>>> they'd
>>>> give Shonn a
>>>> chance to shine.
>>>> I want to see Shonn start next week. That will mean to me that the CS
>>>> is
>>>> serious about
>>>> winning.
>>>
>>>LT surprised me early on...lately he looks tired, and changing up runners
>>>can create an advantage so I think starting Greene, let LT come in on
>>>passing downs and in an empty backfield...and let McKnight try some
>>>stuff...their defense has some injuries...it needs to be hit with more
>>>than
>>>it can think about.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It's funny, I expected LT to play well, but I never expected (silly me)
>> that they'd pretty
>> much never give Shonn a chance, as the feature back.
>> I'm hopin' that next week we'll finally see him start, but alas, I aint
>> holdin' my breath
>> ;)
>
>I expected to see LT as the featured back...to me, it fit in with the Favre
>deal and what I still think Woody likes...a big name and splash. I'm very
>pleased Greene didn't break, that was my fear with him. I'd still like to
>have had TJ on the team. I love that type of runner.
>

Yup, my concern about Shonn, was the injury thing too.
Of course, he hasn't really been pushed, but he has relieved some concerns.


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 7:34 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
news:7ls4i6lfu7sf0tatp3be77s4otdu0apslp@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 15:34:37 -0500, "papa.carl44"
> <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>>news:o5d3i6d3lm76c0vj2arlqfguap2fp5pmaa@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 00:05:17 -0500, "papa.carl44"
>>> <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:5sf2i6to9nsi0hqjvnde3fv8lmcegs33up@4ax.com...
>>>>> Would love to see Shonn get the number of carries McKnight had
>>>>> today...
>>>>> just once this
>>>>> season. I loved the pick up of LT, but that was with the thinking
>>>>> they'd
>>>>> give Shonn a
>>>>> chance to shine.
>>>>> I want to see Shonn start next week. That will mean to me that the CS
>>>>> is
>>>>> serious about
>>>>> winning.
>>>>
>>>>LT surprised me early on...lately he looks tired, and changing up
>>>>runners
>>>>can create an advantage so I think starting Greene, let LT come in on
>>>>passing downs and in an empty backfield...and let McKnight try some
>>>>stuff...their defense has some injuries...it needs to be hit with more
>>>>than
>>>>it can think about.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's funny, I expected LT to play well, but I never expected (silly me)
>>> that they'd pretty
>>> much never give Shonn a chance, as the feature back.
>>> I'm hopin' that next week we'll finally see him start, but alas, I aint
>>> holdin' my breath
>>> ;)
>>
>>I expected to see LT as the featured back...to me, it fit in with the
>>Favre
>>deal and what I still think Woody likes...a big name and splash. I'm very
>>pleased Greene didn't break, that was my fear with him. I'd still like to
>>have had TJ on the team. I love that type of runner.
>>
>
> Yup, my concern about Shonn, was the injury thing too.
> Of course, he hasn't really been pushed, but he has relieved some
> concerns.

I guess we don't really know because he just didn't play that much...not
like the every down type back. But also, we don't know if he is the kind of
guy who will simply get better and better with more carries and gets into a
rhythm. Perhaps the coaches could not see that in any practice situations.
I still like the TJ type guy...along with some outside type speedsters...the
league is such now that you benefit from some different type runners. BB is
very good at making that happen, and he uses guys according to their talents
and abilities. I just feel like there are so many wasted downs with the
Jets at times, plays called where you knew it wasn't going anywhere, we
don't really know what they could do given the right situation.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Taps for Mangini...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/d062e60952219cc9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 5:09 pm
From: buRford


On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 09:00:26 -0800 (PST), Michael <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Jan 3, 11:44 am, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:
>> Fired again.
>> I wonder if anyone is gonna hire him for any position... or he'll be outta football?
>
>i always thought mangini would make a good scout or may be even a good
>gm down the road. i like the players the jets drafted under mangini,
>and i like the guys the browns drafted under him. at the very least,
>mangini can be a db coach if he stays in the pro's. if he wants a hc
>gig, i'd guess his pro experience would make him attractive in the
>college ranks. it is odd that a guy like cowher was given 14 seasons
>but mangini gets canned twice after short stays.

I don't think he got much of a chance with the Browns, especially, once the big guy got
there.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anyone going to Indy?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/ad619c8cb7cfa9d3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 6:25 pm
From: John C TX


On Jan 3, 12:20 pm, "IndyJets...@gmail.com" <indyjets...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> If anyone is going to Indy for the game and needs any info about the
> city, let me know. It would be nice to meet any fellow Jets fans. I've
> been reading your posts for several years. I live 20 minutes from
> Indy, and work on the westside. I'm originally from NJ.
>
> David
David that is very kind of you. I wish I had areason to be near Indy
on Sat.

I haven't met but one member of this group and if he is an indication
of the quality in here,well, hide the silveraware.

:)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Fans Know...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b785e066a7661046?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 7:57 pm
From: "JKConey"


How often do we hear the talking heads on TV stick up for the incumbent
coach or player, or plan of attack? "Well he's a proven winner", "you dance
with who brung ya", "he's one of the best in the league", "his stats make
him one of the elite" etc etc etc.... ad nauseum. Let's face it. We're here
watching every play of every game. We were bashing Herm, Mangini, etc for
months and years before the bosses eyes were opened. We know when the game
plan stinks, and players are being misused, or under or overused. It's
amazing how these 18 hour a day coaches can't see these things? Prevent
defense, going on 4th and a mile, not running enough. Challenging and
losing... Sanchez too many high % passes... LT too many touches... Greene
too few touches... Brad Smith not allowed to pass, Danny Woodhead or Joe
McKnight? Feely or Folk? The list is very long, but it's every team. Start
giving the fans some respect.

--

www.myconeyislandmemories.com

==============================================================================

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