Monday, January 3, 2011

rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

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rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Hot hookers @ $1k/week - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ba27fca8f52b8550?hl=en
* Triathlism: an incredibly unserious sport - 11 messages, 9 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ec19a0075582348d?hl=en
* was I'm ashamed to admit I was conned. How to dress warm and proof of the
existence of god - 7 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/5e6b1523a2cdde60?hl=en
* Fred Alert ! ---- Alexi reading RBR ? - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ac60ea0d397490f9?hl=en
* Tuesdays In January - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/2ec0feb534ac14de?hl=en
* World Exclusive -- Jonathan Page Crossdressing - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/229f95680ee270ec?hl=en
* MESMARISING VIDEOS&HOT PHOTOS - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/d270759da6394d60?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Hot hookers @ $1k/week
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ba27fca8f52b8550?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:24 pm
From: "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."


On Jan 3, 9:52 am, Plano Dude <tx.wastel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/30/former-playmate-izabella-_n_...
>
> Especially one that will put up with the, ahem, incidentals.

Dumbass -

She complained that he lay there like a "dead fish" but WTF? If you're
gonna have sex with an 84 year old man, there is about a 100%
probability that if he does manage to get it up that he's gonna lie
there and expect the chick to do all the work. I mean, he's EIGHTY
FOUR YEARS OLD!

I'm very unimpressed with this woman. If you're gonna lower yourself
to having sex with 84 year old men, don't complain about it. It's your
fault.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Triathlism: an incredibly unserious sport
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ec19a0075582348d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:51 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau


On Jan 3, 10:10 am, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 4:18 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jan/02/chrissie-wellington-inter...
>
> > Best female triathlete on the planet wasn't into sports until her 20s,
> > had a creepy relationship with her sex-offender first coach, and can't
> > really ride a bike. I'm not making any of that up.
>
> Dumbass,
>
> She split with the coach and I don't see where it says
> she can't ride a bike, other than that as a novice she
> had to be shown how to clip and unclip from pedals.
> I mean, of course she can't ride a bike, she's a tri-geek,
> but no evidence she's worse than the rest.

One of the first things he did was sign her up to do a long-course
triathlon in Alpe d'Huez, which takes place on some of the gruelling
climbs of the Tour de France. She got a puncture, catapulted over a
crash barrier and still managed to win. 

Yes, bike racers crash too, but I promise you that if any pros
catapult over a crash barrier during a TT, then...

1) I will laugh
2) They will not win that race

And also, grading triathletes on the curve of tri bike handling would
be emblematic of the soft bigotry of low expectations. I'm principled
enough to observe that they're terrible.

Mind you, cycling may be the second least serious pro sport around...

> The real problem here is that she gets through the
> bike ride by humming horrible music (at least she
> admits it's horrible) and reciting Kipling to herself.
> Sick.
>
> Fredmaster Ben

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:52 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau


On Jan 3, 11:58 am, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
<kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 6:05 am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On 1/3/2011 7:11 AM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>
> > > Ryan - I think you're wrong.  Train for and do an ironman - it's a
> > > fucking bitch.
>
> > Dumbass,
>
> > Hard != Serious
>
> > For example, RAAM is hard.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Triathlon is serious.
>
> There's a decent amount of money at stake. $$$ brings out the
> seriousness.

In theory I can believe that. This interview was empirical evidence
you're wrong.


== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:15 pm
From: "Beloved Fred No. 1"


Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Yes, bike racers crash too, but I promise you that if any pros
> catapult over a crash barrier during a TT, then...

I bet Julich could if he tried a little.


== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:15 pm
From: Brad Anders


On Jan 3, 4:18 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jan/02/chrissie-wellington-inter...
>
> Best female triathlete on the planet wasn't into sports until her 20s,
> had a creepy relationship with her sex-offender first coach, and can't
> really ride a bike. I'm not making any of that up.

That's a really amazing article, on so many levels. Not a whole lot of
humility.


== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 3:02 pm
From: Frederick the Great


In article
<5c99e977-2f26-4276-aff3-40d4830cdfc5@p7g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
Ryan Cousineau <rcousine@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 3, 10:10 am, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 4:18 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jan/02/chrissie-wellington-inter...
> >
> > > Best female triathlete on the planet wasn't into sports until her 20s,
> > > had a creepy relationship with her sex-offender first coach, and can't
> > > really ride a bike. I'm not making any of that up.
> >
> > Dumbass,
> >
> > She split with the coach and I don't see where it says
> > she can't ride a bike, other than that as a novice she
> > had to be shown how to clip and unclip from pedals.
> > I mean, of course she can't ride a bike, she's a tri-geek,
> > but no evidence she's worse than the rest.
>
> One of the first things he did was sign her up to do a long-course
> triathlon in Alpe d'Huez, which takes place on some of the gruelling
> climbs of the Tour de France. She got a puncture, catapulted over a
> crash barrier and still managed to win. 
>
> Yes, bike racers crash too, but I promise you that if any pros
> catapult over a crash barrier during a TT, then...
>
> 1) I will laugh
> 2) They will not win that race
>
> And also, grading triathletes on the curve of tri bike handling would
> be emblematic of the soft bigotry of low expectations. I'm principled
> enough to observe that they're terrible.
>
> Mind you, cycling may be the second least serious pro sport around...

Second only to synchronized swimming.

--
Old Fritz


== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 5:25 pm
From: "derFahrer@gmail.com"


Anyone who thinks triathlon is serious should be forced to watch this
over and over until they are cured:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRKajY5GlyI

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 6:41 pm
From: Fred Flintstein


On 1/3/2011 4:15 PM, Brad Anders wrote:
> On Jan 3, 4:18 am, Ryan Cousineau<rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jan/02/chrissie-wellington-inter...
>>
>> Best female triathlete on the planet wasn't into sports until her 20s,
>> had a creepy relationship with her sex-offender first coach, and can't
>> really ride a bike. I'm not making any of that up.
>
> That's a really amazing article, on so many levels. Not a whole lot of
> humility.

To her credit she's aware of her mental illness. She has OCD and
she revels in it. Laff has OCD and he's totally oblivious to it.

Fred Flintstein


== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 6:43 pm
From: Scott


On Jan 3, 4:02 pm, Frederick the Great <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <5c99e977-2f26-4276-aff3-40d4830cd...@p7g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
>  Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 10:10 am, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Jan 3, 4:18 am, Ryan Cousineau <rcous...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jan/02/chrissie-wellington-inter...
>
> > > > Best female triathlete on the planet wasn't into sports until her 20s,
> > > > had a creepy relationship with her sex-offender first coach, and can't
> > > > really ride a bike. I'm not making any of that up.
>
> > > Dumbass,
>
> > > She split with the coach and I don't see where it says
> > > she can't ride a bike, other than that as a novice she
> > > had to be shown how to clip and unclip from pedals.
> > > I mean, of course she can't ride a bike, she's a tri-geek,
> > > but no evidence she's worse than the rest.
>
> > One of the first things he did was sign her up to do a long-course
> > triathlon in Alpe d'Huez, which takes place on some of the gruelling
> > climbs of the Tour de France. She got a puncture, catapulted over a
> > crash barrier and still managed to win. 
>
> > Yes, bike racers crash too, but I promise you that if any pros
> > catapult over a crash barrier during a TT, then...
>
> > 1) I will laugh
> > 2) They will not win that race
>
> > And also, grading triathletes on the curve of tri bike handling would
> > be emblematic of the soft bigotry of low expectations. I'm principled
> > enough to observe that they're terrible.
>
> > Mind you, cycling may be the second least serious pro sport around...
>
> Second only to synchronized swimming.
>
> --
> Old Fritz

Or synchronized gerbil-wheel team pursuit


== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 7:22 pm
From: TriGuru55x11


On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 12:52:05 -0800 (PST), Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> On Jan 3, 11:58�am, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 3, 6:05�am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/3/2011 7:11 AM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>>
>>> > Ryan - I think you're wrong. �Train for and do an ironman - it's a
>>> > fucking bitch.
>>
>>> Dumbass,
>>
>>> Hard != Serious
>>
>>> For example, RAAM is hard.
>>
>> Dumbass -
>>
>> Triathlon is serious.
>>
>> There's a decent amount of money at stake. $$$ brings out the
>> seriousness.
>
> In theory I can believe that. This interview was empirical evidence
> you're wrong.

As painful as that video was to watch that, I still want to thank you.

That hit me hard and this for me was a real "moment of truth" "wake up and
smell the taint" kind of realization, I think I learned some valuable
things to help further train my clients.

I don't usually read this board and it is good to see there's worthwhile
information being posted.


== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 8:36 pm
From: Scott


On Jan 3, 8:22 pm, TriGuru55x11 <tri_trai...@contractor.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 12:52:05 -0800 (PST), Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 11:58 am, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
> > <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jan 3, 6:05 am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>> On 1/3/2011 7:11 AM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>
> >>> > Ryan - I think you're wrong. Train for and do an ironman - it's a
> >>> > fucking bitch.
>
> >>> Dumbass,
>
> >>> Hard != Serious
>
> >>> For example, RAAM is hard.
>
> >> Dumbass -
>
> >> Triathlon is serious.
>
> >> There's a decent amount of money at stake. $$$ brings out the
> >> seriousness.
>
> > In theory I can believe that. This interview was empirical evidence
> > you're wrong.
>
> As painful as that video was to watch that, I still want to thank you.
>
> That hit me hard and this for me was a real "moment of truth" "wake up and
> smell the taint" kind of realization, I think I learned some valuable
> things to help further train my clients.
>
> I don't usually read this board and it is good to see there's worthwhile
> information being posted.

Reminds me of my first ever triathlon... almost. I went to great
lengths to recon the route from the swim finish to where I'd racked my
bike, since I'd read how hectic it could be to search for your bike in
all the confusion. No one told me that if you're next to last coming
out of the water, it's not hard at all to find your bike. When I
think of all the time/energy I wasted that morning,...


== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 9:51 pm
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Jan 3, 7:41 pm, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcREMOVEglobal.net>
wrote:
> On 1/3/2011 4:15 PM, Brad Anders wrote:
>
> > On Jan 3, 4:18 am, Ryan Cousineau<rcous...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >>http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/jan/02/chrissie-wellington-inter...
>
> >> Best female triathlete on the planet wasn't into sports until her 20s,
> >> had a creepy relationship with her sex-offender first coach, and can't
> >> really ride a bike. I'm not making any of that up.
>
> > That's a really amazing article, on so many levels. Not a whole lot of
> > humility.
>
> To her credit she's aware of her mental illness. She has OCD and
> she revels in it. Laff has OCD and he's totally oblivious to it.

She's destroying the competition - it kinda sounds like
any humility would be forced. I'd rather read that then
listen to yet another football player modestly thanking God
for his success (like God cares about beating the Broncos.
Okay, maybe God does care about vanquishing the
Broncos, but that doesn't explain His intervention in all
other games each week.)

Of course, she's destroying them partly because the
field is thin, but still, I think you practically have to have OCD
to be a top endurance athlete. I mean, not just the
training, but the whole weighing-the-oatmeal baggage.
It's not that you have to weigh the oatmeal to win -
it's that you have to have that need to care enough
to weigh it.

Fredmaster Ben
Obsessive, yet not a top endurance athlete

==============================================================================
TOPIC: was I'm ashamed to admit I was conned. How to dress warm and proof of
the existence of god
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/5e6b1523a2cdde60?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:53 pm
From: Duane Hébert


On 1/3/2011 3:23 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> Op 3-1-2011 14:41, andresmuro@aol.com schreef:
>> On another note, when dressing up. Too much is always preferable. All
>> you need is rear pockets on your jersey (another almost perfect
>> creation that can almost turn atheists into believers). As you start
>> to warm up, you simply remove stuff to reach your comfort zone. For
>> example, ElPpaso is the perfect environment to test this hypothesis.
>> You may start riding at 29 degrees and in a couple of hours it can go
>> up to 55. I start with sleeveless underwear, a jersey, arm warmers and
>> a fleece jacket with windfront panels. below I wear two pairs of
>> shorts and leg warmers. I also wear booties, a beanie hat and a face
>> mask. I also carry a thinner beanie hat. is a begin to warm up, I
>> remove my face mask, then my arm warmers, then my beanie hat and
>> replace it for a thinner one. Then I open my jacket. After a 3-4 hour
>> ride, I end up happily comfortable, and I never felt cold, not even
>> when I stated. This approach to dressing is effective and affects my
>> mood very positively (had to add last sentence to stay on topic).
>
>
> 29 degrees is just below freezing is it? Man I feel rather underdressed
> just wearing long sleeved thermoshirt, a winter jacket and winter
> cycling pants and winter shoes from -5 C up to 10 C. A face mask? You
> must be kidding. When I start I must feel a little chilly and not warm
> from the start.

About the same here but with regular cycling shoes. A tuque to cover
the ears and a switch to full fingered gloves serves fine. As long as
it's mostly dry...


== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:21 pm
From: Michael Press


In article
<d6778ced-12cc-4af7-b31c-c809bf056f44@35g2000prt.googlegroups.com>,
James <james.e.steward@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 3, 4:35 am, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> > Op 2-1-2011 17:36, Peter Cole schreef:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 1/1/2011 10:51 AM, Duane Hebert wrote:
> >
> > >> "Jay Beattie" <jbeat...@lindsayhart.com> wrote in message
> > >>news:5161b3a9-bef2-4420-9dd8-214cc301ebdf@d1g2000pra.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > >>> I was riding today in the West Hills, and I was fretting about the
> > >>> areas of sheet ice from rain run-off and some local springs, but the
> > >>> road was mostly clear -- it was in the 20s F, and there was snow on
> > >>> the shoulder in some places, but nothing like the Midwest. I don't
> > >>> know how people ride below 0, or even below 20 degrees and in real
> > >>> snow and ice (with narrowed roads) for months on end. -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > >> Skiing.
> >
> > > I always liked Sheldon's line about New England being great for cycling
> > > 10 months out of the year -- July and August being just too hot.
> >
> > > When I began doing weekly club rides many years ago, I was surprised to
> > > find that everyone planned to stop once the cold weather arrived. I
> > > announced that I was going to keep riding every Saturday morning, by
> > > myself, if need be. That first winter, I did indeed ride a few times
> > > alone, but most times had several companions. Now, the typical ride,
> > > even in the dead of winter, draws 50 or so, even cold wind-swept rain
> > > will bring out a dozen. The club's unbroken Saturday morning ride
> > > "streak" now exceeds 700 rides. That list includes sub-zero (F),
> > > pre-plow blizzards (had to bike to ride start, no cars out) and even a
> > > hurricane. They were all fun.
> >
> > > I've never understood the reluctance to cycle in winter. I grew up doing
> > > all kinds of outdoor winter activities, cycling seemed no different.
> > > Like everything else, it just seemed a matter of getting the right
> > > clothing/gear. Downhill skiing in some ways was much more challenging,
> > > given that you were usually on top of some barren mountain, often going
> > > faster than a bike, and/or spending long times shuffling in lift lines
> > > or dangling on chair lifts (frequently stopped under snow guns).
> > > Cycling, like X/C skiing or skating, makes it easier to tolerate the
> > > cold, given the constant high activity level. A hour or two bike ride in
> > > the lowlands seems like nothing compared to all day on the howling
> > > summits with stop & go chilling and sweating.
> >
> > > Having done lots of both, I would rather ride in the woods in the winter
> > > than X/C ski, conditions allowing, ditto for biking on frozen lakes over
> > > skating. X/C skiing and mountain biking form almost perfect compliments,
> > > since snow depth makes one or the other always possible. That said, snow
> > > around here (Boston) has been unreliable enough to have only supported
> > > brief X/C seasons in the last decade. Winter MTB seems to be the better
> > > bet. Road riding is always do-able.
> >
> > > I actually ride more on winter weekends than I do in the summer. The
> > > short winter days prod me to get as much daylight as possible, and there
> > > aren't so many competing outdoor activities. In the summer, it's hard to
> > > give up sailing or a picnic to sweat over hot pavement. I would much
> > > rather ride for a couple of hours on Saturday or Sunday outside, even if
> > > it's in sleet or freezing rain than slog on the trainer indoors or just
> > > lay about nursing a bad case of cabin fever. There's not enough Prozac
> > > in the world to get me to mall walk or spin in a gym.
> >
> > > I had a good ride yesterday, lots of snow melting in the almost 60F
> > > warmth. The deep slush made things slippery in spots, I much prefer
> > > things to be frozen solid so my studs have something to grip.
> >
> > Indeed. Cycling keeps me sane during the dark season. The studs doing
> > very well on ice and hard pack frozen snow and not so well on deep
> > sticky wet snow we had the last couple of days. On the other hand it is
> > good for you steering and balancing capabilities ;-)
> > What is not to like about these circumstances:
> >
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/LoetjeH/Winter_dec2010#
>
> It's effing cold! I'm not equipped for riding in that stuff. Last
> time I tried was the winter classic from Mt Hotham and around Omeo in
> Victoria. It was -7 degC on top of Hotham and the cold air burned my
> lungs. I don't know how the cross country skiers do it, or you folks.

Breathe in and out through your nose.
Do not work harder than that. Use a
scarf across your nose and mouth.

--
Michael Press


== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 3:36 pm
From: "andresmuro@aol.com"


On Jan 3, 1:23 pm, Lou Holtman <lhollaatditmaar...@planet.nl> wrote:
> Op 3-1-2011 14:41, andresm...@aol.com schreef:
>
> > On another note, when dressing up. Too much is always preferable. All
> > you need is rear pockets on your jersey (another almost perfect
> > creation that can almost turn atheists into believers). As you start
> > to warm up, you simply remove stuff to reach your comfort zone. For
> > example, ElPpaso is the perfect environment to test this hypothesis.
> > You may start riding at 29 degrees and in a couple of hours it can go
> > up to 55. I start with sleeveless underwear, a jersey, arm warmers and
> > a fleece jacket with windfront panels. below I wear two pairs of
> > shorts and leg warmers. I also wear booties, a beanie hat and a face
> > mask. I also carry a thinner beanie hat. is a begin to warm up, I
> > remove my face mask, then my arm warmers, then my beanie hat and
> > replace it for a thinner one. Then I open my jacket. After a 3-4 hour
> > ride, I end up happily comfortable, and I never felt cold, not even
> > when I stated. This approach to dressing is effective and affects my
> > mood very positively (had to add last sentence to stay on topic).
>
> 29 degrees is just below freezing is it? Man I feel rather underdressed
> just wearing long sleeved thermoshirt, a winter jacket and winter
> cycling pants and winter shoes from -5 C up to 10 C. A face mask? You
> must be kidding. When I start I must feel a little chilly and not warm
> from the start.
>
> Lou

Im a woos. 25 is the lowest I'll go. I'll wear a thermo vest into the
60s and it doesn't bother me one bit. In the summer, I can ride in the
100s no problem.


== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 3:48 pm
From: "andresmuro@aol.com"


On Jan 3, 7:58 am, Peter Cole <peter_c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On 1/2/2011 7:37 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
> > On Jan 2, 11:36 am, Peter Cole<peter_c...@verizon.net>  wrote:
>
> >> I've never understood the reluctance to cycle in winter. I grew up doing
> >> all kinds of outdoor winter activities, cycling seemed no different.
> >> Like everything else, it just seemed a matter of getting the right
> >> clothing/gear.
>
> > Well, I find the choice of clothing is a lot more complicated than
> > for, say, winter hiking.  Seems to me the amount of uphill heating and
> > the difference with downhill, wind chill cooling is much greater than
> > it is for hiking or XC skiing.  Yes, I know to zip and unzip, etc.,
> > and I even worked up some records of what to wear in what
> > temperatures,  but even that is tougher when I'm needing both hands
> > for bike control plus wearing clumsy gloves.
>
> Being a techophile and a seamster (male seamstress), I'm fascinated by
> the problem of winter activewear. I've found the best synthetic fleeces
> to be game changers, including those more exotic types with integral
> semipermeable membranes.
>
> The problem with thermal management when cycling has a lot to do with
> moisture management, both self-generated (sweat) and external
> (rain/spray). Part of the solution is to control the rate of air
> exchange, and the gradient of flow with proximity to the skin. The other
> part is using materials with the lowest change of insulating performance
> with moisture (generally proportional to absorbency).
>
> In cycling, "leading edge" surfaces get much more cooling, so garments
> need to protect those areas. Most clothing, even cycling-specific, does
> a poor job at this. Much the same is true for rain wear.
>
> I see many winter cyclists who make the classic mistake of using
> impermeable outer layers which, while providing a good wind block, trap
> moisture, eventually lowering insulation to near nothing. A much better
> way is layering garments with the inner layers being permeable (and
> wicking) but dense, while the outer layers get progressively less dense
> and more permeable. This emulates the fur coats of many animals.
>
> Extremities are harder to keep warm. Head, feet and hands are tricky.
> Feet tend to get progressively colder, while hands often seem to start
> cold then warm up, and even overheat, with activity. In really cold
> conditions, combined with air flow from wind or velocity, ears, noses,
> cheekbones can get painfully cold (and even damaged). Keeping them warm,
> without restricting breathing or fogging protective lenses can be a
> challenge.
>
> I've (and many others) have found that synthetic stretch fleece (e.g.
> Polartec "Power Stretch" "4-way" -- actually 2-axis --) works almost
> magically well for tights. It has a remarkable comfort range, despite
> it's lack of bulk, good into the 20's(F) or below, by itself just over
> cycling shorts. I couldn't find upper body garments from the same
> material, so I made my own. I've since found them available at outdoor
> equipment outlets. The trick, as with the tights, is to wear them very
> tight. I think the reason they're so effective is that they prevent
> laminar flow over the skin, while allowing perspiration to freely dissipate.
>
> Judicious use of wind-blocking material on leading edge surfaces (knees,
> knuckles, shoulders, upper chest, etc.) can make a huge difference in
> comfort by eliminating cold spots, and if not overdone, won't trap too
> much moisture.
>
> For the coldest days of the year (perhaps below 15F), I add ski goggles
> to my usual balaclava, and cover cheeks, nose and extra for ears with a
> kind of "faceband" I made -- a thinner version of a headband which
> covers the area from goggle to upper lip. Some people use "bank holdup"
> type balaclavas, but I like the incremental approach with layers that
> can be quickly added or removed as conditions change.
>
> I've yet to come up with a perfect system for all conditions, but I have
> much fun trying. I've picked up some tricks from other winter cyclists
> and long distance riders (like rain shorts for warm weather, which I
> modified to rain knickers for cold weather). Shoes are a problem, since
> my size 16 limits choices, ditto for my XXL hands. Cobbling and glove
> making are a bit outside my pay grade, but I can tweak and hack a bit.
>
> I layer gloves, since my hands tend to heat up a lot during a vigorous
> ride. I usually wear a fleece outer glove over a thinner (e.g. X/C ski)
> insulated glove and peel the outer layer when my hands get hot. In
> really cold weather I layer with an overmitt, I have light (unlined)
> ones and heavy (lined) ones which I select for the weather. I don't have
> a problem with shifters since I generally use either bar-end or fixed
> gear bikes in the cold weather, both work well with mitts. Cycling
> gloves seem to lose heat through conduction on the palm side and
> convection on the back. I've yet to see gloves that are designed to deal
> with this.
>
> For shoes, I've yet to do better than oversize with good heavy socks --
> again, I prefer synthetic fleece, mostly for its wet warmth, though wool
> can have better resistance to compression. People often speak well of
> winter-specific cycling shoes (Lake et al, but they're outside of my
> budget and size). A cheaper alternative for flat pedals are lightweight
> winter shoes like the old LL Bean "Snow Sneakers" favored by Alaskan
> cyclists. I've seen people riding classic, felt-lined Sorel's, but those
> things are boat anchors. I got my wife a pair of slip on Sorel's this
> year, light as a feather and (she claims) quite warm and waterproof.
> Modern materials like Thinsulate and Goretex are much better for cycling
> applications than the old, heavy felt and rubber. Some people even swear
> by sandals and thick socks in the winter, probably not as nuts as it
> sounds especially if your feet tend to sweat a lot. I've experimented
> with heavy fleece shoe covers, which worked pretty well, although the
> sole material I used wasn't too durable. I'm interested in experimenting
> with some of the coated fleece fabric that's used as neoprene
> replacement in cold water sports. One of these days I think I'll make up
> some bib shorts from it and see if it works for cold wet rides.
>
> > I admit that I wimp out a lot these days.  I used to ride a lot more
> > in winter than I now do.  Part of that was realizing that I frequently
> > got bronchitis after longish winter rides.  A few years after that
> > began happening with some regularity, I began cutting back.  Getting
> > old, I guess.
>
> I have friends who have developed "exercise induced asthma" from hard
> riding in very cold conditions, so I think it's something to be
> concerned about. I've often hacked a bit for the afternoon after a cold
> weather "fitness" (fast) ride. I've learned to just back the pace off a
> lot when the air is really cold and dry unless I want to spend the rest
> of the day wheezing. Just as in the heat and humidity of the dog days,
> you have to adjust your riding to suit the conditions. From the sample
> of riders I've seen, it doesn't seem to correlate to age at all, unless
> it's an inverse correlation, old riders tend to be tougher. As with
> studded tires, I'd rather settle for riding a bit slower in the winter
> than not riding at all, winters get too damn long in New England otherwise.

something that has escaped me. It used to be that jackets where fleece
all around with windfront panels. Lately, they been making these soft-
shells that have wind protection all around. Problem is that they
don't breathe. So, within minutes you'll start sweating. What happened
to the jackets made of fleece with windfront panels only? My other
frustration with buying jackets is that you never know what they are
made of. They are made from the ultimate pro eschclair, technowind,
ultrastop, thingamajig. Well, I don't want that. I want a full light
fleece jacket with front nylon wind panels that cover front arms and
shoulders. it is possible that the fancy term translates to my
requirements. However, since I don't know what it means, i don't
buy.


== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 5:26 pm
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">


On 1/3/2011 8:58 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
> [...]
> Some people even swear by sandals and thick socks in the winter,
> probably not as nuts as it sounds especially if your feet tend to sweat
> a lot.[...]

The key here is to have a windproof outer sock.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.


== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 5:53 pm
From: Jay Beattie


On Jan 3, 5:26 pm, Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net"> wrote:
> On 1/3/2011 8:58 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
>  > [...]
>
> > Some people even swear by sandals and thick socks in the winter,
> > probably not as nuts as it sounds especially if your feet tend to sweat
> > a lot.[...]
>
> The key here is to have a windproof outer sock.

Does it matter in a velomobile? -- Jay Beattie.


== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 6:17 pm
From: Tºm Shermªn™ °_° <""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$southslope.net">


On 1/3/2011 7:53 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
> On Jan 3, 5:26 pm, T�m Sherm�n� �_�<""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
> $southslope.net"> wrote:
>> On 1/3/2011 8:58 AM, Peter Cole wrote:
>> > [...]
>>
>>> Some people even swear by sandals and thick socks in the winter,
>>> probably not as nuts as it sounds especially if your feet tend to sweat
>>> a lot.[...]
>>
>> The key here is to have a windproof outer sock.
>
> Does it matter in a velomobile? -- Jay Beattie.

Think of the velomobile as a giant windproof sock.

Unfortunately, I will likely not have a velomobile until summer arrives.

--
T�m Sherm�n - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Fred Alert ! ---- Alexi reading RBR ?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/ac60ea0d397490f9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:57 pm
From: Ryan Cousineau


On Dec 27 2010, 2:06 pm, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 27, 11:56 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "When I hear the vacuous critic, I know they have never been there.
> > They are "fred's".  All talk and no walk."
>
> >http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/98-is-that-really-so
>
> dumbass,
>
> sports scrambles your brains.
>
> humans, as individuals can't provide all our basic necessities, so we
> need society to live. to our primitive minds social approval is as
> important as food or the need to reproduce and loss of status or
> humiliation is as painful as sickness or hunger.
>
> doing well at sports gives you a status boost among the people that
> care that is as powerful being very good looking or being very rich.
> that is why master fatties and amateurs cheat to win even low level
> bike races with trivial prizes and poser like liz hatch call
> themselves pro athletes.
>
> guys like grewal need to realize that he doesn't live in an ancient
> tribe and heightened status from racing quizno's as a 50 yr old won't
> affect his well being. he is being fooled by the 1 million year old
> wiring in his brain. once he realizes this he will stop talking like a
> child.

If you've read about Alexei's somewhat straitened personal
circumstances, you may notice his well-being probably would be
affected by racing Quizno's credibly. I would say that about very few
people, regardless of their talents.

It would apply to Chad Gerlach as well,


== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:54 pm
From: Frederick the Great


In article
<ba83b8e4-cbef-4ca4-962f-829ccb5c6843@29g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
"Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringioni@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 2, 9:03 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > As an aside, software patents suck.  In fact, if you
> > look at how Gates, Ellison, and Jobs made their
> > zillions, I don't think they made it off software patents.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> They made all that money because they're really good businessmen.

Yes. They each made a good product that did a good job;
and that many people wanted.

--
Old Fritz


== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 8:38 pm
From: Scott


On Jan 3, 3:54 pm, Frederick the Great <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> In article
> <ba83b8e4-cbef-4ca4-962f-829ccb5c6...@29g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
>  "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni." <kgringi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 2, 9:03 pm, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > As an aside, software patents suck.  In fact, if you
> > > look at how Gates, Ellison, and Jobs made their
> > > zillions, I don't think they made it off software patents.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > They made all that money because they're really good businessmen.
>
> Yes. They each made a good product that did a good job;
> and that many people wanted.
>
> --
> Old Fritz

ah, ha! that's the secret, eh?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tuesdays In January
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/2ec0feb534ac14de?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:19 pm
From: BLafferty


On 1/3/2011 3:12 PM, RicodJour wrote:
> On Jan 3, 12:11 pm, BLafferty<b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On 1/3/2011 11:52 AM, Philip W. Moore, Jr. wrote:> Go ride your bike and shut the fuck up.
>>> "BLafferty"<b...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>> Unless I'm mistaken, the Federal Grand Jury for the Central District
>>>> of California meets every Tuesday. Which Tuesday will Lance& Co. come
>>>> to rue?
>>
>> Go fuck your bike, Phil.
>
> Phil could at least find his bike, Jowls. You couldn't find your bike
> or your little dingle.
>
> R
I'm devastated by your witty reply.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: World Exclusive -- Jonathan Page Crossdressing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/229f95680ee270ec?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 8:55 pm
From: Zenon


.
.
Source: http://thejonathanpage.com/blog.html
.
"After a hot shower and an hour in my wife's long down coat..."
.
What's going on here?
.
.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: MESMARISING VIDEOS&HOT PHOTOS
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/d270759da6394d60?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 10:34 pm
From: rama rao


SEXY DIYA MIRZA
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/2010/12/diya-mirza.html
HOT AISHWARIYA RAI
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priyamani hot&sexy photos
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KATRINA SEXY PHOTOS
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ANUSHKA HOT PHOTOS
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/2010/12/anuska.html
BEAUTIFUL AISHWARIYA RAI
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TRISHA HOT PHOTOS
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AMISHAPATEL HOT VIDEOS
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HANSIKHA HOT SEXY PHOTOS
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HOT SEXY COLLEGE GIRLS
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/hot
BEAUTIFUL LARADATTA
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/laradatta
NIKISHA HOT BOOBS
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PRIYANKA SPICY LATEST PICS
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ONLY FOR YOUTH
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/spicy
SRILEKHA UNSEENED PHOTOS
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/Srilekha
CHOPRA UNBELIVABLE PHOTOS
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/chopra
HOT BIPASA BASU PHOTOS
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TRISHA IN A SEXY FEEL
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/thrisha
SRISHA HOT BOOBS SHOW
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/srisha
BEAUTIFUL POONAM PHOTOS
http://karomasti9.blogspot.com/search/label/poonam


==============================================================================

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:11709 Finally after a gap of one year, the CrPC amendments have been notified.

Buzz It
Monday, January 4, 2010
CrPC Amendment now gazetted with changes, a full one year later!

Finally after a gap of one year, the CrPC amendments have been
notified.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/In-New-Year-gift-for-India--victims-get-a-voice--the-right-to-appeal-judgments/561778

The only problem is, the one amendment which was most useful for
common people to escape clutches of powerful people controlling police
-- i.e. power of arbitrary arrest by police; HAS NOT BEEN NOTIFIED.

Instead, the 'gift' seems to be that if you fought for 5 years in
criminal court against a crime-accused, and he was acquitted by court;
then you can appeal against acquittal and run around courts for
another 5 years hoping for a conviction this time! What are the
chances that someone who got acquitted due to delay, shoddy
investigation by police, witnesses not available etc will be nailed
the second time?


The New Year will bring a special gift for victims of crime in India.
On the second last day of 2009, the government decided to notify a
landmark amendment to the Criminal Procedure Code (CrPC), giving
victims the right to appeal against a court order acquitting an
accused, or convicting the accused of a lesser offence.

Under the amended Sec 372 CrPC, the victim will not need the
permission of any law enforcement or prosecuting agency to appeal a
court order. Currently, an appeal can be made only if the prosecution
so decides.

Now coming to a few other amendments which were of real importance to
litigants and public but which were NOT NOTIFIED:

However, the Ministry has decided not to notify two amendments that
the lawyers had opposed strongly to CrPC Sections 41(A) and 309.

The amendment to Sec 41(A) barred police from arresting an accused for
an offence that carries a maximum punishment of seven years without
first issuing him/her a notice of appearance.

Comment: What do lawyers gain from above? You guessed it right. The
money they get from arranging bails for people accused in false cases
by powerful people who can game the police and judicial system to
their advantage.

The amendment to Sec 309, aimed at speeding up trials, disallowed the
granting of adjournments on flimsy grounds.

Comment: And what a crime it would have been if adjournments were not
granted on flimsy grounds! Justice must be given and seen to be given,
but make sure after so many adjournments that any remaining witnesses
are untraceable, pass away to heavens, or become hostile just to save
themselves trouble!

An important amendment that will be notified is Section 357A, making
it mandatory for state governments to draw up a scheme in coordination
with the Centre to provide funds for compensation to victims or their
dependents. Victims will be entitled to compensation if the offender
is not caught and tried.

Comment: Would like to see this one implemented! How state governments
will decide the amount of compensation, how much compensation for what
kind of victim, and so on. And most importantly, how will funding for
the comensation be arranged -- will States and Centre fight for
another 4 years (when elections are due) on the funding requirements?
Posted by yodha at 1:09 PM
Labels: CrPC, Judicial Administration, Judicial Reforms
http://nyayabharat.blogspot.com/2010/01/crpc-amendment-now-gazetted-with.html

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:11709 DGP blows whistle on dowry cases

Buzz It
DGP blows whistle on dowry cases

TIMES NEWS NETWORK

Bangalore: DGP Ajai Kumar Singh has issued a circular to all police
stations to
be cautious while dealing with dowry harassment cases.
The police chief said: Based on the study of complaints of 498,498a
IPC and
Dowry Prohibition Act,some cases registered against the husband and...
relatives
are found making false allegations. The circular stated that as per
Supreme
Court orders,police have the power to arrest the accused under CrPC
41.But they
have to collect ample proof as evidence before making the arrests.
It stressed on the necessity to protect rights of the
innocent.Hence,the
investigation report should be reviewed by the corresponding
superintendent of
police/ deputy commissioner of police,and with their permission arrest
the
accused.

HAWKS EYE

The National Family Harmony Society (NFHS) on Wednesday said it will
monitor all
the police stations in Karnataka over the next few months.We will
initiate
contempt cases against those who are not following guidelines, P
Suresh,NFHS
president,said.

Page 6 of Times Bangalore 4th Nov, 2010..

http://twextra.com/2kj8x8

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:11709 Tue 4.1.2011

Buzz It
You can't fly a kite unless you go against the wind and have a weight
to keep it from turning a somersault. The same with man. No man will
succeed unless he is ready to face and overcome difficulties and is
prepared to assume responsibilities.
William J.H. Boetcker

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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Google Alert - south korea

Buzz It
News7 new results for south korea
 
Japan and South Korea to discuss defense ties, North Korea
Reuters
SEOUL (Reuters) - Japanese and South Korean defense ministers will meet next week in Seoul to discuss boosting military ties in the wake of deadly attacks ...
See all stories on this topic »
South Korea Pension Service to Form Private-Equity Fund
Wall Street Journal
By SE YOUNG LEE SEOUL—South Korea's National Pension Service on Tuesday said it will form a private-equity fund to jointly invest with domestic ...
See all stories on this topic »
South Korea Stocks: Doosan Engine, Hyundai Heavy, Korea Zinc
Bloomberg
By Saeromi Shin - Tue Jan 04 00:15:24 GMT 2011 South Korea's Kospi index rose 3.59, or 0.2 percent, to 2073.67 as of 9:10 am in Seoul, set for a record ...
See all stories on this topic »
South Korea President Lee Calls For Effort To Curb Inflation
RTT News
(RTTNews) - South Korean President Lee Myung-bak told his cabinet on Tuesday to make efforts to bring down inflation closer to target levels. ...
See all stories on this topic »
FMD spreading through central part of S. Korea
Yonhap News
4 (Yonhap) -- Foot-and-mouth disease (FMD) is spreading through South Korea's central region despite nationwide quarantine efforts, the government said ...
See all stories on this topic »
240 Vermont Air Guard members to deploy to South Korea
BurlingtonFreePress.com
More than 200 members of the Vermont Air National Guard are being deployed this week to about a month of duty in South Korea. The first group of airmen ...
See all stories on this topic »
South Korea's Foreign-Exchange Reserves Rise to $291.6 Billion
Bloomberg
By Frances Yoon - Mon Jan 03 21:00:00 GMT 2011 South Korea's foreign-exchange reserves rose in December, boosted by gains in the value of the yen and the ...
See all stories on this topic »


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alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets - 25 new messages in 12 topics - digest

Buzz It
alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets?hl=en

alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Indianapolis Star columnist: Jets Will Win, Some Funny Stuff - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/e34821ac2512fccd?hl=en
* Wildcat - 7 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/daf93da716580e95?hl=en
* How embarrassed is the NFL... - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/84a12107de8fc2bf?hl=en
* Next Sat nite, 8PM... be there... - 6 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/123bfdc2c59444cd?hl=en
* The 3rd winningest season in team history - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1404a2f154a0622d?hl=en
* OT: Charlie Weis to be OC for Florida - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/7793ab0fdbab6713?hl=en
* Confidence? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/80e01f8203eb72c0?hl=en
* OT: Fave in hot water again... Legal paper filed for sexual harassment while
Favre was a Jet - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/bca912847b1f528d?hl=en
* As an aside... - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/746063793acb69b5?hl=en
* OT: Taps for Mangini... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/d062e60952219cc9?hl=en
* Anyone going to Indy? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/ad619c8cb7cfa9d3?hl=en
* The Fans Know... - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b785e066a7661046?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Indianapolis Star columnist: Jets Will Win, Some Funny Stuff
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/e34821ac2512fccd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:46 pm
From: JetsLife

http://www.indystar.com/article/20110103/SPORTS/110103021


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wildcat
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/daf93da716580e95?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:51 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > the
> > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > changes
> > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game Buffalo
> > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > running
> > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > stuffed...then
> > > a
> > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > the
> > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > always
> > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of the
> > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > endzone.
> > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > use,
> > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > the
> > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was a
> > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation in
> > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > something else.
>
> i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's.  could you ever
> see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up.  The bone
> stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else.  The pure
> option stuff is very complicated today.  There is actually a move the Jets
> use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation.  You
> see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and does
> the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way.  That
> freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to set
> up a block based on that reaction.  The pro game is too much passing...and a
> QB can't get killed doing option stuff.  And....the fans want to see the
> passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
of pace. could such a stunt bare some fruit ??? it would seem that a
cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
of the line. may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead


== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:07 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 3:51 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > > the
> > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > changes
> > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game Buffalo
> > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > running
> > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > stuffed...then
> > > > a
> > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > > the
> > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > always
> > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of the
> > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > endzone.
> > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > > use,
> > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > > the
> > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was a
> > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation in
> > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > something else.
>
> > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's.  could you ever
> > see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> > The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up.  The bone
> > stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else.  The pure
> > option stuff is very complicated today.  There is actually a move the Jets
> > use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation.  You
> > see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and does
> > the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way.  That
> > freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to set
> > up a block based on that reaction.  The pro game is too much passing...and a
> > QB can't get killed doing option stuff.  And....the fans want to see the
> > passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
> of pace.  could such a stunt bare some fruit ???  it would seem that a
> cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
> of the line.  may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
> that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

come to think of it... the modern day screen pass almost seems like a
wish bone play. you get the same sort of effect with defenders
getting used up... and... you dont expose your qb to the channel.
instead of a hand off in the tripple option with three rb's, it is a
short pass inside of a "bunch". i wonder if the screen play has any
roots in the tripple option.


== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:10 pm
From: Grinch


On Jan 3, 2:14 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 1:57 pm, Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 3, 9:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on the
> > > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the changes
> > > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game Buffalo
> > > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of running
> > > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got stuffed...then
> > > > > a
> > > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till the
> > > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost always
> > > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of the
> > > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > > endzone.
> > > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to use,
> > > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was the
> > > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was a
> > > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation in
> > > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > > something else.
>
> > > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > > see a wishbone working in the pros ???- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Re the wishbone in the pros.
>
> > The basic concept of the option O is:
>
> > You leave the D-end unblocked, the OT blocks inward to double-team or
> > cut off the pursuit, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB instead of being out of the play after the handoff is in the
> > play, giving the O an extra player, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB runs in tandem with the RB toward the DE, two player against
> > one, that's *good*...
>
> > If the DE goes for the QB he pitches the ball to the RB who goes
> > outside for a gain in the open field, if the DE goes for the RB the QB
> > keeps the ball and runs inside "through the channel" with LBs to one
> > side, safeties head, DE in pursuit, for a good 5 or 7 yard gain,
> > before they all converge on him in a pile-up -- so you always have one
> > runner with an open route upfield for several yards, which is
> > *good*...
>
> > If your QB running "through the channel" is Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,
> > Drew, Phil, Brett ... Sanchez, etc., thats ***BAAADD!***
>
> > I saw Belichick answer this question once, saying no true option O
> > will ever be a base NFL offense is because
>
> > (1) NFL defensive ends are coached on option plays to take out the RB
> > and make the QB run up inside "through the channel", and ...
>
> > (2) The NFL is a passing league, you have to pass well to win, good
> > passers are very few and cost many millions of dollars, and no coach
> > is ever going to risk his job/team owner is ever going risk his money
> > by having his top passing arm run "through the channel" even three
> > times a game, much less 20+ times a game as his O's base idea.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> i guess with the option, if you have a guy like brad smith or may be
> tebow AND a regular starting qb too, you can safely run the option a
> few times a game with your utililty guy no ???
>
> as far as the wish bone... i was thinking of using a gimmic like 3
> rb's in the wishbone backfield... it does not create additional
> bubbles/gaps like the wild cat or the option, but it creates
> additional blockers for the standard gaps. i started thinking about a
> wish bone gimmic after miami came out with their wild cat. i think it
> would be a shock to a cover two style defense.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm sure an NFL team could run the 'bone or an option of its choice
quite effectively on a limited basis, as a short-yardage or special-
situation or surprise set.

But in the pros you always have the trade off: If you leave your
regular QB on the field to avoid tippping it, move him out to flanker
or somewhere, you're basically playing 10 on 11 and as soon as the D
sees him out there they'll shift up to block the run. While if you
take the QB out to put in your "option package" with a real option QB,
the D will respond by putting in its "anti-option package" that
ignores the pass to really close down the run.

If you have an option QB who can throw like Smith, better for you.
I'd love to see Smith throw more on these plays. But he throws well
only for an option QB not an NFL QB, or he'd be the #2 QB behind
Sanchez. And this is still a pass-to-win league.

Go to the well with the option too often, get predictible with it, the
Ds will develop serious anti-option packages, and the option will go
the way of the run-and-shoot -- a brief period of glory, then back to
special-situation land. You'll bone yourself. There's a reason why
the wishbone has disappeared even from high-level college play.

I still remember an Orange Bowl where Wishbone Nebraska played
Johnson's Pro-Style Miami. Nebraska came out rushing like 7 yards a
carry, really scary impressive. Then they found themselves in one
single third-and-long, and their QB dropped back and threw like a
girl. The Miami players were laughing. That was the end, Miami put
10 in the box and completely closed them down....

I just Googled it to be sure my Alzheimer's wasn't imagining things.
1989, Nebraska averaged 380 yards rushing during the season, #1 in the
country, but got only 80 in the big game. That's what happens when an
option O gets *predictible* against pro-quality coaching and personnel
on D. They also had all of 55 yards passing, lost 23-7. (It didn't
help them any that playing only the 'bone in a 'bone league, their D
never practiced against decent passing and their DBs weren't any
better than their QB.)

That said, on a limited basis I think it could work fine. You might
even use your regular 1st-string QB running it on key plays, to keep a
real passing option and put the D in a real tough spot, if he's
athletic enough.

IIRC, when Warren Moon was on the Oilers they used a wishbone with him
at QB on short-yardage and goal-line situations, until they had some
bad fumbles on pitchouts. And I know that Bill Walsh after he retired
said he regretted not putting in a Single Wing package for Steve
Young. But it says something that when he had the chance he thought
about it and still didn't do it. What would 20 successful Single Wing
plays with Young be worth compared to one play where he's carried of
the field on a stretcher?

FWIW, one of my favorite anecdotes from the long history of Jets
misery dates to the great year when Lou Holtz coached them. He
thought, why should I be constrained by NFL dogma? I'll put in the
veer offense and surprise them all! He brought a veer QB into camp to
run it. Walt Michaels was the DC, and he wasn't about to have his D
be embarrassed by a college option offense even in camp. He had that
QB carried off the field on a stretcher in the first week of practice.
That was the end of the short run of the veer in the NFL.

That story via Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0SG6Ps7vk4C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=Lou+Holtz+Walt+Michaels+veer&source=bl&ots=jd3bwfllSX&sig=lVkWNVMzqqnNWXPpAWajDf83fKk&hl=en&ei=FSoiTa6ZBYH0swPCh9i5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lou%20Holtz%20Walt%20Michaels%20veer&f=false

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:08 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ddc8a6b3-970f-4ab9-b0a7-49fca8c57a7e@g26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > the
> > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > changes
> > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > Buffalo
> > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > running
> > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > stuffed...then
> > > a
> > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > the
> > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > always
> > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of
> > > the
> > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > endzone.
> > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > use,
> > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > the
> > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was
> > a
> > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation
> > in
> > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > something else.
>
> i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up. The
> bone
> stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else. The pure
> option stuff is very complicated today. There is actually a move the Jets
> use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation. You
> see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and does
> the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way. That
> freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to set
> up a block based on that reaction. The pro game is too much passing...and
> a
> QB can't get killed doing option stuff. And....the fans want to see the
> passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide quoted
> text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
of pace. could such a stunt bare some fruit ??? it would seem that a
cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
of the line. may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead

Some people have done it...but you need a back who has ball handling
skills...and it seems quite a few of them have problems just holding on to
the damn thing. When I see some of these defenses on passing downs, I often
wonder why they don't run an old Greenbay Sweep....and do it weak...they
don't have the people to stop it.


== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:11 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0c13a056-7071-44e1-a611-e7e8d147c814@n29g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 3:51 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 3:14 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:cfcd88ca-f544-4446-b64d-b90b438ff25c@k13g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB
> > > > on
> > > > the
> > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > changes
> > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > > Buffalo
> > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > running
> > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > stuffed...then
> > > > a
> > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play
> > > > till
> > > > the
> > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > always
> > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of
> > > > the
> > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > endzone.
> > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > > use,
> > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred
> > > > was
> > > > the
> > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it
> > > was a
> > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation
> > > in
> > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something
> > > works
> > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > something else.
>
> > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > see a wishbone working in the pros ???
>
> > The pistol and all the other variations are the wishbone grown up. The
> > bone
> > stopped working in college, it evolved and became something else. The
> > pure
> > option stuff is very complicated today. There is actually a move the
> > Jets
> > use, even with Sanchez that is taken from the freeze option variation.
> > You
> > see it when the QB faces out with a delay, and then comes around and
> > does
> > the handoff to the back on the hesitation and going the other way. That
> > freeze action causes the D to react and gives an O lineman a chance to
> > set
> > up a block based on that reaction. The pro game is too much
> > passing...and a
> > QB can't get killed doing option stuff. And....the fans want to see the
> > passing game, they'd never put up with a boring option game.- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> what about rolling out a three back set ??? just as a gimmic or change
> of pace. could such a stunt bare some fruit ??? it would seem that a
> cover two defense would get mauled by all those backs hitting one side
> of the line. may be even go to the outside sort of like a screen pass
> that starts as a hand off or pitch out instead- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

come to think of it... the modern day screen pass almost seems like a
wish bone play. you get the same sort of effect with defenders
getting used up... and... you dont expose your qb to the channel.
instead of a hand off in the tripple option with three rb's, it is a
short pass inside of a "bunch". i wonder if the screen play has any
roots in the tripple option.

LOL...I just thought, "Damn, I'm old enough that the modern screen pass
looks like the crap we did in high school." If you really want to get into
some research, get some books on the original T offense....the fullhouse
backfield with a fullback behind a QB and two half backs often did work like
the bone, veer and all that other stuff....once upon a time there was an
offense called "Fly-T Offense"....it did a lot of the things that eventually
became bone and veer stuff and did have an option component in it...however,
a lot of the time the option look was predetermined. I learned a lot of
that offense decades ago and I think it could be very effective at some
levels today.


== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:24 pm
From: Grinch


On Jan 3, 3:16 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Grinch" <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> news:a8d15afb-f088-4dc4-bd51-8d58d24a393a@fu15g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 9:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the QB on
> > > > the
> > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > changes
> > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > > Buffalo
> > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > running
> > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > stuffed...then
> > > > a
> > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play till
> > > > the
> > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > always
> > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking of
> > > > the
> > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > endzone.
> > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option to
> > > > use,
> > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred was
> > > > the
> > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just so
> > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that can
> > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it was
> > > a
> > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular formation
> > > in
> > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something works
> > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > something else.
>
> > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > see a wishbone working in the pros ???- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Re the wishbone in the pros.
>
> The basic concept of the option O is:
>
> You leave the D-end unblocked, the OT blocks inward to double-team or
> cut off the pursuit, that's *good* ....
>
> The QB instead of being out of the play after the handoff is in the
> play, giving the O an extra player, that's *good* ....
>
> The QB runs in tandem with the RB toward the DE, two player against
> one, that's *good*...
>
> If the DE goes for the QB he pitches the ball to the RB who goes
> outside for a gain in the open field, if the DE goes for the RB the QB
> keeps the ball and runs inside "through the channel" with LBs to one
> side, safeties head, DE in pursuit, for a good 5 or 7 yard gain,
> before they all converge on him in a pile-up -- so you always have one
> runner with an open route upfield for several yards, which is
> *good*...
>
> If your QB running "through the channel" is Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,
> Drew, Phil, Brett ... Sanchez, etc., thats ***BAAADD!***
>
> I saw Belichick answer this question once, saying no true option O
> will ever be a base NFL offense is because
>
> (1) NFL defensive ends are coached on option plays to take out the RB
> and make the QB run up inside "through the channel", and ...
>
> (2) The NFL is a passing league, you have to pass well to win, good
> passers are very few and cost many millions of dollars, and no coach
> is ever going to risk his job/team owner is ever going risk his money
> by having his top passing arm run "through the channel" even three
> times a game, much less 20+ times a game as his O's base idea.
> ---
> Good description of an option offense...the basics that set everything else
> up.  And good explanation of why it will not come into the NFL.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks. What, last week(?) Peyton Manning ran a beautiful naked
bootleg from mid-field. Surprised everyone, me, the camera crew, the
D. He was all alone by himself chugging along, gone about 25 yards,
it looked like even he could go the length ... then one defender came
within 10 yards of him and he took a dive and curled up like a
hedgehog. I think it's going to be a while before we see real option
Os run by first-team QBs in the NFL. :-)

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:38 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Grinch" <oldnasty@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:87a6467c-2652-4cfb-9700-02154abd7de0@f20g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 2:14 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 3, 1:57 pm, Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 3, 9:48 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 3, 1:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:8d06722e-7b94-4474-b10f-38b03b0ba14a@d8g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Jan 2, 7:00 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > They ran it today like it should be run...and when they left the
> > > > > QB on the
> > > > > field we saw what can happen...plus they showed they can make the
> > > > > changes
> > > > > without calling a timeout. What did bug me was in the early game
> > > > > Buffalo
> > > > > had NO idea how to stop that option, then near the goal instead of
> > > > > running
> > > > > it again they used the wildcat with an inside play that got
> > > > > stuffed...then
> > > > > a
> > > > > FG instead. I did not like that...I still believe you run a play
> > > > > till the
> > > > > defense shows you they can stop it, and by stopping it they almost
> > > > > always
> > > > > give something else big up, this is what I think is the breaking
> > > > > of the
> > > > > rhythm that happens. They should have run that deal right into the
> > > > > endzone.
> > > > > All that said, they showed that it can be a very effective option
> > > > > to use,
> > > > > and I liked Conor being part of it...they formation they preferred
> > > > > was the
> > > > > "pistol" with running back options open....I like it.
>
> > > > i dont see any issue running the wild cat or any other gimmic just
> > > > so
> > > > long as it works and you are not banking on it. what i like most
> > > > about using the wild cat is that it forces the teams you play to
> > > > overload their defensive preperation. then you can do other stuff
> > > > while they are concentrating on covering the extra bubbles that the
> > > > wild cat creates. the key is... you gotta make it work in game, and
> > > > if it aint happenin', you gotta lay off... and most importatnly...
> > > > dont grow to rely on it, or you are toast in th end. a team that
> > > > can
> > > > run the wild cat has a nice tool to use, but a "wild cat" team is
> > > > ultimately numbered for the bottom
>
> > > > The way they started running it was not really even the wildcat..it
> > > > was a
> > > > pure option offense out of a pistol, which is a very popular
> > > > formation in
> > > > option football now. I don't see it as a gimick...and if something
> > > > works
> > > > they should run it to death till the defense figures out how to stop
> > > > it...THAT can tire the crap out of a defense, then you hit them with
> > > > something else.
>
> > > i hardly ever hear the term "pistol" used outside of college. i wonder
> > > if that stuff will start making it over to the pro's. could you ever
> > > see a wishbone working in the pros ???- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Re the wishbone in the pros.
>
> > The basic concept of the option O is:
>
> > You leave the D-end unblocked, the OT blocks inward to double-team or
> > cut off the pursuit, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB instead of being out of the play after the handoff is in the
> > play, giving the O an extra player, that's *good* ....
>
> > The QB runs in tandem with the RB toward the DE, two player against
> > one, that's *good*...
>
> > If the DE goes for the QB he pitches the ball to the RB who goes
> > outside for a gain in the open field, if the DE goes for the RB the QB
> > keeps the ball and runs inside "through the channel" with LBs to one
> > side, safeties head, DE in pursuit, for a good 5 or 7 yard gain,
> > before they all converge on him in a pile-up -- so you always have one
> > runner with an open route upfield for several yards, which is
> > *good*...
>
> > If your QB running "through the channel" is Peyton Manning, Tom Brady,
> > Drew, Phil, Brett ... Sanchez, etc., thats ***BAAADD!***
>
> > I saw Belichick answer this question once, saying no true option O
> > will ever be a base NFL offense is because
>
> > (1) NFL defensive ends are coached on option plays to take out the RB
> > and make the QB run up inside "through the channel", and ...
>
> > (2) The NFL is a passing league, you have to pass well to win, good
> > passers are very few and cost many millions of dollars, and no coach
> > is ever going to risk his job/team owner is ever going risk his money
> > by having his top passing arm run "through the channel" even three
> > times a game, much less 20+ times a game as his O's base idea.- Hide
> > quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> i guess with the option, if you have a guy like brad smith or may be
> tebow AND a regular starting qb too, you can safely run the option a
> few times a game with your utililty guy no ???
>
> as far as the wish bone... i was thinking of using a gimmic like 3
> rb's in the wishbone backfield... it does not create additional
> bubbles/gaps like the wild cat or the option, but it creates
> additional blockers for the standard gaps. i started thinking about a
> wish bone gimmic after miami came out with their wild cat. i think it
> would be a shock to a cover two style defense.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'm sure an NFL team could run the 'bone or an option of its choice
quite effectively on a limited basis, as a short-yardage or special-
situation or surprise set.

But in the pros you always have the trade off: If you leave your
regular QB on the field to avoid tippping it, move him out to flanker
or somewhere, you're basically playing 10 on 11 and as soon as the D
sees him out there they'll shift up to block the run. While if you
take the QB out to put in your "option package" with a real option QB,
the D will respond by putting in its "anti-option package" that
ignores the pass to really close down the run.

If you have an option QB who can throw like Smith, better for you.
I'd love to see Smith throw more on these plays. But he throws well
only for an option QB not an NFL QB, or he'd be the #2 QB behind
Sanchez. And this is still a pass-to-win league.

Go to the well with the option too often, get predictible with it, the
Ds will develop serious anti-option packages, and the option will go
the way of the run-and-shoot -- a brief period of glory, then back to
special-situation land. You'll bone yourself. There's a reason why
the wishbone has disappeared even from high-level college play.

I still remember an Orange Bowl where Wishbone Nebraska played
Johnson's Pro-Style Miami. Nebraska came out rushing like 7 yards a
carry, really scary impressive. Then they found themselves in one
single third-and-long, and their QB dropped back and threw like a
girl. The Miami players were laughing. That was the end, Miami put
10 in the box and completely closed them down....

I just Googled it to be sure my Alzheimer's wasn't imagining things.
1989, Nebraska averaged 380 yards rushing during the season, #1 in the
country, but got only 80 in the big game. That's what happens when an
option O gets *predictible* against pro-quality coaching and personnel
on D. They also had all of 55 yards passing, lost 23-7. (It didn't
help them any that playing only the 'bone in a 'bone league, their D
never practiced against decent passing and their DBs weren't any
better than their QB.)

That said, on a limited basis I think it could work fine. You might
even use your regular 1st-string QB running it on key plays, to keep a
real passing option and put the D in a real tough spot, if he's
athletic enough.

IIRC, when Warren Moon was on the Oilers they used a wishbone with him
at QB on short-yardage and goal-line situations, until they had some
bad fumbles on pitchouts. And I know that Bill Walsh after he retired
said he regretted not putting in a Single Wing package for Steve
Young. But it says something that when he had the chance he thought
about it and still didn't do it. What would 20 successful Single Wing
plays with Young be worth compared to one play where he's carried of
the field on a stretcher?

FWIW, one of my favorite anecdotes from the long history of Jets
misery dates to the great year when Lou Holtz coached them. He
thought, why should I be constrained by NFL dogma? I'll put in the
veer offense and surprise them all! He brought a veer QB into camp to
run it. Walt Michaels was the DC, and he wasn't about to have his D
be embarrassed by a college option offense even in camp. He had that
QB carried off the field on a stretcher in the first week of practice.
That was the end of the short run of the veer in the NFL.

That story via Google Books:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y0SG6Ps7vk4C&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=Lou+Holtz+Walt+Michaels+veer&source=bl&ots=jd3bwfllSX&sig=lVkWNVMzqqnNWXPpAWajDf83fKk&hl=en&ei=FSoiTa6ZBYH0swPCh9i5Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Lou%20Holtz%20Walt%20Michaels%20veer&f=false


I heard about that Holtz episode. I met Holtz a few times and on one
occasion at a clinic when he was caught off guard and we saw a not very nice
guy. I like all of what you say here. Good analysis. The overall team
speed in the NFL causes problems for a bone type option offense....BUT...I
really think you uncovered some things that they do not take advantage of.
A few times when Miami ran the Wildcat continuously, it would wear the
defense down quite a bit. I think a well executed Wildcat, pistol....guys
like Smith doing it could be very difficult to defend for a period of
time.....what I can't understand is when it works and then they stop doing
it. I come from the school of make them stop it, run it and run it till
they stop it, and by doing so they often show another weakness...and then
you come back with the other components of the scheme. I don't think it
works well as the field shortens and you can get more defenders to the point
of attack...but it can really wear a defense down and confuse them
especially run in a series with no huddle stuff. I have done some research
on no huddle offense and it is interesting stuff. Coslett had a role in it.
I also don't see why for at least a play, not running it as a series, you
couldn't send the QB (Sanchez) out to the wide split position and just have
him leave the field and a replacement come on going right to his spot. It
is not illegal, and the guy coming on would know the play....that does not
allow for the D to adjust and it puts a real threat out there. Remember the
old Lonely End stuff?


==============================================================================
TOPIC: How embarrassed is the NFL...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/84a12107de8fc2bf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 12:53 pm
From: JetsLife


On Jan 3, 10:21 am, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> ...by having a team with a losing record in the playoffs? If you go to
> NFL.com, and then to the page with the playoff schedule, in the section
> where they list the seeding order for the playoff teams every team shows
> their won-lost record in parentheses after their name - except one.
> Seattle is listed only as NFC West champion.
> --
> graybeard

At a minimum the NFL should determine playoffs seeds via W-L. With
only 37.5% of the schedule being division games it makes sense.


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:05 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"JetsLife" <JetsLife@aol.com> wrote in message
news:da38ed50-4866-4be6-8d2d-1a4a129d877a@l22g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 10:21 am, graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> ...by having a team with a losing record in the playoffs? If you go to
> NFL.com, and then to the page with the playoff schedule, in the section
> where they list the seeding order for the playoff teams every team shows
> their won-lost record in parentheses after their name - except one.
> Seattle is listed only as NFC West champion.
> --
> graybeard

At a minimum the NFL should determine playoffs seeds via W-L. With
only 37.5% of the schedule being division games it makes sense.

Well put....the division thing has become very irrelevant in some ways.
Maybe, they could keep four conferences playing amongst themselves for the
most part. In this day and age they do not need to be geographic either.
Then the winners come out of conferences and the playoffs begin. It makes
more sense in terms of teams actually winning and would produce the best of
a group...and then on to the next level. Only a thought.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Next Sat nite, 8PM... be there...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/123bfdc2c59444cd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:11 pm
From: John C TX


X-No-Archive: Yes

> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.

or in my case a hurricane & twisters..

:)


== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:01 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"John C TX" <johnctxjets@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
>> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> :)

So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it all....hurricanes,
an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing cold
with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere, crime,
troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot the
sink holes and bad air quality :-)


== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 4:56 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > :)
>
> So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it all....hurricanes,
> an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing cold
> with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere, crime,
> troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets.  Oh....I forgot the
> sink holes and bad air quality :-)

and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
bread box


== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 7:38 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3ee9cba1-f352-48f1-b2d2-0560457ccf85@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in
> messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > :)
>
> So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it
> all....hurricanes,
> an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing
> cold
> with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere,
> crime,
> troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot
> the
> sink holes and bad air quality :-)

and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
bread box

ummm...I put highest taxes....BUT...we have the highest paid police force on
the East Coast in my town...so Hah ! Another thing we forgot....lots and
lots of brand new office and corporate parks / headquarters with nobody in
them...just some great big money write offs. The State motto should be
"Turning cornfields into condos and parks into parking lots....that's NJ."


== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 8:02 pm
From: Michael


On Jan 3, 10:38 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:3ee9cba1-f352-48f1-b2d2-0560457ccf85@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does not
> > >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > > :)
>
> > So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it
> > all....hurricanes,
> > an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing
> > cold
> > with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere,
> > crime,
> > troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> > like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot
> > the
> > sink holes and bad air quality :-)
>
> and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
> bread box
>
> ummm...I put highest taxes....BUT...we have the highest paid police force on
> the East Coast in my town...so Hah !  Another thing we forgot....lots and
> lots of brand new office and corporate parks / headquarters with nobody in
> them...just some great big money write offs.  The State motto should be
> "Turning cornfields into condos and parks into parking lots....that's NJ."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

good motto...

and... we should no longer be the "garden state"... change that to
"The Corrupt Shit Heel State"


== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 8:37 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:d8c84223-689f-41b2-a3db-4fef99c718b0@f8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 3, 10:38 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:3ee9cba1-f352-48f1-b2d2-0560457ccf85@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jan 3, 5:01 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in
> > messagenews:446a256d-a6ff-4038-981e-c1a025510021@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > >> The thing with the Gulf Coast or any coast is a breeze...that does
> > >> not
> > >> happen in that summer midwest humidity till a twister comes.
>
> > > or in my case a hurricane & twisters..
>
> > > :)
>
> > So come on back North...move to Jersey and you can get it
> > all....hurricanes,
> > an occasional twister in Central Jersey, outrageous 100+ heat, freezing
> > cold
> > with snow, ice and rain, congested highways, overcrowding everywhere,
> > crime,
> > troubled schools, some of the highest taxes in the country, if you don't
> > like the weather, wait a day...and above all...The Jets. Oh....I forgot
> > the
> > sink holes and bad air quality :-)
>
> and $10,000+ per year in property tax for a house about the size of a
> bread box
>
> ummm...I put highest taxes....BUT...we have the highest paid police force
> on
> the East Coast in my town...so Hah ! Another thing we forgot....lots and
> lots of brand new office and corporate parks / headquarters with nobody in
> them...just some great big money write offs. The State motto should be
> "Turning cornfields into condos and parks into parking lots....that's
> NJ."- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

good motto...

and... we should no longer be the "garden state"... change that to
"The Corrupt Shit Heel State"

I like, "You figure it out in the blizzard...I'm going to Disney World."
"So what if you don't have books to use, teach them something else."
Or...."If you can't afford the property taxes, sell it and move." Living
near and around a lot of the State offices can be very enlightening. Some
of the clowns who got jobs the last time around definitely fit your
suggestion....I love the "commisioners" who have ZERO experience in the area
they are in charge of. Hey, I have a good idea...let's sell the Turnpike !

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The 3rd winningest season in team history
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/1404a2f154a0622d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 1:13 pm
From: JetsLife


On Jan 2, 4:14 pm, Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> 1968: 11-3, .786
> 1998: 12-4, .750
> 2010: 11-5, .688
> 1985: 11-5, .688
>
> (OK, tied for 3rd-4th.)
>
> In 51 seasons.
>
> SOJ.  Not.

Indeed. Unfortunately this also speaks to the Jets' dearth of success
historically.

But we're in the here and now, 11 wins is a good regular season.

The 2-3 games I'd really like back/the Jets coulda won were the home
losses/horrendous offensive performances to Miami, Green Bay and
Baltimore. If the offense produces just a little more for the winning
points v. Miami, Baltimore & GB, the Jets woulda claimed the division
and No. 1 seed, IINM. The defense was up and down this year, but aside
from NE game 2 it kept the Jets in every game.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Charlie Weis to be OC for Florida
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/7793ab0fdbab6713?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 2:05 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"John C TX" <johnctxjets@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9fc7db3c-5c19-4fec-89f8-8e20f64b5d0b@l32g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > The colleges bid another top name away from the pros.
>
> > Ah, "amateur" sports!
>
> Some theories:
>
> 1. Weis likes the college hours.
>
> Yes to this...he likes the college atmosphere too. He is a guy who went
> from high school to NY Giants in no time at all, he is from around here.
>
> 2. He doesn't like answering to a guy who knows less and thinks he is
> an OC.
>
> I wouldn't bet on this one...they know each other well...and are friends
> on
> and off the field, long history.
>
> 3. Haley didn't like having a more knowledgeable coach around.
>
> Weiss wants to be a colleg HC again I'll bet...and he likes the younger
> players and developing them.

#1 is most likely & he may wish to be HC again but he has seen the pro
life and the hours it entails & the shorter easier time commitment of
college football. If someone is going to pay you great money in a
great program, why not? We should ask Spurrier what he thinks?

:)

Some of those college coaches do put in outrageous hours...and do a LOT of
recruiting, the image factor is harder to deal with :-) Look at how they
can behave in the NFL etc. But....it is a much nicer atmosphere. I would
imagine he has some health concerns too and college will be nicer to him.
I'd rather live in Florida than KC too...except for the food...then I'll
take KC. I do like that BBQ. Oh...and the music. :-)

As for #2 & #3, #2 is certainly a possibility if Haley was very
involved in the offense, but is entirely speculation on my part.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Confidence?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/80e01f8203eb72c0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 3:00 pm
From: "JKConey"


I've been beggin' all year for Rex to use McKnight as a change of pace
guy, and also some of the other DB's. I'm hoping that now he has enough
confidence to start shuttling these guys in and out, to make Peyton, "I'm
not doing enough commercials", Manning have to deal with additional bodies
and tendencies. Let's face it, with no rush, they need to do something
different or we'll need 40 to win.

--

www.myconeyislandmemories.com


==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Fave in hot water again... Legal paper filed for sexual harassment
while Favre was a Jet
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/bca912847b1f528d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 4:26 pm
From: Michael


http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Former-Jets-massage-therapists-sue-Brett-Favre-sexual-harassment-010311

Sounds like things are being just a tad bit embellished for the sake
of their legal paper

"Favre "responded in an inappropriate manner and refused to
apologize," the filing says.

"He essentially told him to go away and as a celebrity he couldn't be
bothered with the little people," said the therapists' lawyer, David
Jarosclawicz."


==============================================================================
TOPIC: As an aside...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/746063793acb69b5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 5:07 pm
From: buRford


On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 15:34:37 -0500, "papa.carl44" <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:

>
>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>news:o5d3i6d3lm76c0vj2arlqfguap2fp5pmaa@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 00:05:17 -0500, "papa.carl44"
>> <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>>>news:5sf2i6to9nsi0hqjvnde3fv8lmcegs33up@4ax.com...
>>>> Would love to see Shonn get the number of carries McKnight had today...
>>>> just once this
>>>> season. I loved the pick up of LT, but that was with the thinking
>>>> they'd
>>>> give Shonn a
>>>> chance to shine.
>>>> I want to see Shonn start next week. That will mean to me that the CS
>>>> is
>>>> serious about
>>>> winning.
>>>
>>>LT surprised me early on...lately he looks tired, and changing up runners
>>>can create an advantage so I think starting Greene, let LT come in on
>>>passing downs and in an empty backfield...and let McKnight try some
>>>stuff...their defense has some injuries...it needs to be hit with more
>>>than
>>>it can think about.
>>>
>>
>>
>> It's funny, I expected LT to play well, but I never expected (silly me)
>> that they'd pretty
>> much never give Shonn a chance, as the feature back.
>> I'm hopin' that next week we'll finally see him start, but alas, I aint
>> holdin' my breath
>> ;)
>
>I expected to see LT as the featured back...to me, it fit in with the Favre
>deal and what I still think Woody likes...a big name and splash. I'm very
>pleased Greene didn't break, that was my fear with him. I'd still like to
>have had TJ on the team. I love that type of runner.
>

Yup, my concern about Shonn, was the injury thing too.
Of course, he hasn't really been pushed, but he has relieved some concerns.


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 7:34 pm
From: "papa.carl44"

"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
news:7ls4i6lfu7sf0tatp3be77s4otdu0apslp@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 15:34:37 -0500, "papa.carl44"
> <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>>news:o5d3i6d3lm76c0vj2arlqfguap2fp5pmaa@4ax.com...
>>> On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 00:05:17 -0500, "papa.carl44"
>>> <papadotcarl@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"buRford" <buRford@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:5sf2i6to9nsi0hqjvnde3fv8lmcegs33up@4ax.com...
>>>>> Would love to see Shonn get the number of carries McKnight had
>>>>> today...
>>>>> just once this
>>>>> season. I loved the pick up of LT, but that was with the thinking
>>>>> they'd
>>>>> give Shonn a
>>>>> chance to shine.
>>>>> I want to see Shonn start next week. That will mean to me that the CS
>>>>> is
>>>>> serious about
>>>>> winning.
>>>>
>>>>LT surprised me early on...lately he looks tired, and changing up
>>>>runners
>>>>can create an advantage so I think starting Greene, let LT come in on
>>>>passing downs and in an empty backfield...and let McKnight try some
>>>>stuff...their defense has some injuries...it needs to be hit with more
>>>>than
>>>>it can think about.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It's funny, I expected LT to play well, but I never expected (silly me)
>>> that they'd pretty
>>> much never give Shonn a chance, as the feature back.
>>> I'm hopin' that next week we'll finally see him start, but alas, I aint
>>> holdin' my breath
>>> ;)
>>
>>I expected to see LT as the featured back...to me, it fit in with the
>>Favre
>>deal and what I still think Woody likes...a big name and splash. I'm very
>>pleased Greene didn't break, that was my fear with him. I'd still like to
>>have had TJ on the team. I love that type of runner.
>>
>
> Yup, my concern about Shonn, was the injury thing too.
> Of course, he hasn't really been pushed, but he has relieved some
> concerns.

I guess we don't really know because he just didn't play that much...not
like the every down type back. But also, we don't know if he is the kind of
guy who will simply get better and better with more carries and gets into a
rhythm. Perhaps the coaches could not see that in any practice situations.
I still like the TJ type guy...along with some outside type speedsters...the
league is such now that you benefit from some different type runners. BB is
very good at making that happen, and he uses guys according to their talents
and abilities. I just feel like there are so many wasted downs with the
Jets at times, plays called where you knew it wasn't going anywhere, we
don't really know what they could do given the right situation.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Taps for Mangini...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/d062e60952219cc9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 5:09 pm
From: buRford


On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 09:00:26 -0800 (PST), Michael <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Jan 3, 11:44 am, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:
>> Fired again.
>> I wonder if anyone is gonna hire him for any position... or he'll be outta football?
>
>i always thought mangini would make a good scout or may be even a good
>gm down the road. i like the players the jets drafted under mangini,
>and i like the guys the browns drafted under him. at the very least,
>mangini can be a db coach if he stays in the pro's. if he wants a hc
>gig, i'd guess his pro experience would make him attractive in the
>college ranks. it is odd that a guy like cowher was given 14 seasons
>but mangini gets canned twice after short stays.

I don't think he got much of a chance with the Browns, especially, once the big guy got
there.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Anyone going to Indy?
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/ad619c8cb7cfa9d3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 6:25 pm
From: John C TX


On Jan 3, 12:20 pm, "IndyJets...@gmail.com" <indyjets...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> If anyone is going to Indy for the game and needs any info about the
> city, let me know. It would be nice to meet any fellow Jets fans. I've
> been reading your posts for several years. I live 20 minutes from
> Indy, and work on the westside. I'm originally from NJ.
>
> David
David that is very kind of you. I wish I had areason to be near Indy
on Sat.

I haven't met but one member of this group and if he is an indication
of the quality in here,well, hide the silveraware.

:)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: The Fans Know...
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/b785e066a7661046?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 3 2011 7:57 pm
From: "JKConey"


How often do we hear the talking heads on TV stick up for the incumbent
coach or player, or plan of attack? "Well he's a proven winner", "you dance
with who brung ya", "he's one of the best in the league", "his stats make
him one of the elite" etc etc etc.... ad nauseum. Let's face it. We're here
watching every play of every game. We were bashing Herm, Mangini, etc for
months and years before the bosses eyes were opened. We know when the game
plan stinks, and players are being misused, or under or overused. It's
amazing how these 18 hour a day coaches can't see these things? Prevent
defense, going on 4th and a mile, not running enough. Challenging and
losing... Sanchez too many high % passes... LT too many touches... Greene
too few touches... Brad Smith not allowed to pass, Danny Woodhead or Joe
McKnight? Feely or Folk? The list is very long, but it's every team. Start
giving the fans some respect.

--

www.myconeyislandmemories.com

==============================================================================

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