Tuesday, February 1, 2011

rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 5 topics - digest

Buzz It
rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Kimmage-Landis Interview - 18 messages, 10 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/46d2ffd7aa84a209?hl=en
* Finally found a racing result for the new resident dope fiend - 2 messages,
2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/64754facc3436252?hl=en
* N7LA - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/716b4c1663032b0d?hl=en
* Liz Hatch Update - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/04bd2b3a589ba68b?hl=en
* Mr. Vaughters - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/f4a7f041c71016e6?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kimmage-Landis Interview
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/46d2ffd7aa84a209?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 9:16 am
From: DirtRoadie


On Jan 31, 11:39 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:

> Did Kimmage ask him, at any time, if he felt he won the TdF clean? If he
> was actually saying that the doping he'd done was beforehand, or just
> point out that it seemed like he (Landis) was trying to rationalize that
> he did win the TdF without cheating?

I don't get anything like that from reading what FL said. He claims to
know when he used testosterone and when he didn't and doesn't think
the pieces can be made to fit for the positive test that brought him
down. Even taking into account the possibility that transfused blood
from pre- TdF-buildup was "positive" he is saying that the test still
does not match up with a transfusion. In other words, the lab work was
flaky regardless.
And there's not a hint anywhere that he does not think he was
"cheating."
Now if you are saying he was cheating (admitted blood doping) so,
therefore, stripping him of the MJ based upon a (questionable)
positive testosterone test is justified, well, that gets into a whole
different philosophical discussion.

> Am I the only person on rbr who thinks this is inconsistent with his
> "reformed & tell-all" status? And that Kimmage is treating very
> carefully, making sure he doesn't "damage" the prized vehicle for the
> anti-Lance story?

I'm not sure I understand your perspective. If you hate Floyd, fine.
If you love him, that's fine, too. But your (our) feelings toward him
don't have a lot to do with what he is actually saying. Unless you are
merely saying that he has lied before so we can never believe ANYTHING
he says.

DR


== 2 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 9:44 am
From: ilan


On Feb 1, 5:47 pm, Amit Ghosh <amit.gh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 10:09 am, ilan <ilan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > How many times do I have to repeat this until it sinks in: The
> > principle of "innocent until proven guilty" means just that. There is
> > never any need to prove innocence, the burden of proof is on finding
> > guilt.
>
> dumbass,
>
> don't be so dense. your point is right that there isn't the need to
> prove innocence, but it is also irrelevant. ben's assesment is
> correct.
>
> no one will go on trial "for doping" - a notion that is also
> widespread in the press right now. the most serious possible
> indictment will be for a conspiracy to defraud the government.
>
> a likely scenario might be to force testimony from a team support
> person who either broke the law through possibly through some
> associated activity or is afraid to perjure themselves.
>
> as a consequence athletes in question may be forced to admit they did
> dope - which is the actual outcome novitsky is looking for, but it
> will still be more complicated to show that this was an organized
> system to defraud the government.
>
> are you familiar with the tammy thomas and marion jones cases ?

As I understand it, Tammy Thomas was the fall guy for the dope ring at
Lehigh Co. Velodrome. Marion Jones went to jail for writing bad
cheques and as an example (I'm not sure for who).

I doubt that Novitzky will be as succesful in his current
investigation, Balco was literally in his own back yard and was still
active. On the other hand, his curent investigation is of events
taking place over 5 years ago and on another continent.

As for athlete confessions, who knows. The Landis hearing had Lemond
confessing to being sexually abused as a child....

-ilan

== 3 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 9:58 am
From: DirtRoadie


On Feb 1, 8:45 am, BLafferty <b...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On 2/1/2011 10:09 AM, ilan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 1, 7:31 am, Fredmaster of Brainerd<bjwei...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> On Jan 31, 5:33 pm, ilan<ilan...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>
> >>> On Feb 1, 1:06 am, DirtRoadie<DirtRoa...@aol.com>  wrote:
> >>>> On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, "A. Dumas"<alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid>  wrote:
>
> >>>>> Ah, I guess I did not remember the details, should have looked it up.
> >>>>> What I meant was, like you say, no verdict on the doping allegations.
> >>>>> Which may or may not be in contradiction with Ilan's statement.
>
> >>>> Yup. LA (or his people) can claim  the arbitration panel "made no
> >>>> finding that I ever doped," but cannot claim the arbitration panel
> >>>> "found that I never doped." Subtle distinction - Advertising 101
>
> >>> You're still working with the principal misconception, which is that
> >>> it can be proved that one never doped. The same principle that legally
> >>> you do not have to prove your innocence applies to doping, that is,
> >>> the only reasonable requirement is to disprove any one specific
> >>> charge. Therefore, your distinction is between correctness and the
> >>> fallacious thinking that is leading to the current inquisition.
>
> >> Dumbasses,
>
> >> It doesn't even matter whether one can be proven
> >> guilty or innocent of doping.
>
> > How many times do I have to repeat this until it sinks in: The
> > principle of "innocent until proven guilty" means just that. There is
> > never any need to prove innocence, the burden of proof is on finding
> > guilt.
>
> > -ilan
>
> The presumption is innocence is just an evidentiary rule that places the
> burden of proving a charge on the prosecution.

"just an evidentiary rule... "
Hardly. It's a foundation of the criminal law system. But you knew
that. Right?
DR


== 4 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 10:04 am
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


===========
I'm not sure I understand your perspective. If you hate Floyd, fine.
If you love him, that's fine, too. But your (our) feelings toward him
don't have a lot to do with what he is actually saying. Unless you are
merely saying that he has lied before so we can never believe ANYTHING
he says.

DR
===========

I'm coming from the assumption that he did, in fact, cheat using a
testosterone patch or whatever. I agree that the test was flawed, but at
this point, I'm in the camp that says he failed the test because he was
dirty, and the fact that the test might have been questionable in some
aspects doesn't overcome a preponderance of evidence that it did detect
testosterone that wasn't supposed to be there. The fact that he insists
that shouldn't have been the case (that either he didn't cheat to win
the TdF *or* he didn't cheat in the manner in which he was caught) does,
indeed, call everything into question. The guy still isn't facing
reality.

Do I hate Floyd? No. I hate myself a bit for getting suckered into his
pitch; I sent him some money, I even wrote him a note. I was there in
2006 on the mountain when he came through minutes ahead of everyone else
and I was there when he rode off the circuit at the end. So yes, it's
personal to some extent.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"DirtRoadie" <DirtRoadie@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9f4048d1-8b69-4d80-aaa0-cd1a7643db36@p12g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 31, 11:39 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:

> Did Kimmage ask him, at any time, if he felt he won the TdF clean? If
> he
> was actually saying that the doping he'd done was beforehand, or just
> point out that it seemed like he (Landis) was trying to rationalize
> that
> he did win the TdF without cheating?

I don't get anything like that from reading what FL said. He claims to
know when he used testosterone and when he didn't and doesn't think
the pieces can be made to fit for the positive test that brought him
down. Even taking into account the possibility that transfused blood
from pre- TdF-buildup was "positive" he is saying that the test still
does not match up with a transfusion. In other words, the lab work was
flaky regardless.
And there's not a hint anywhere that he does not think he was
"cheating."
Now if you are saying he was cheating (admitted blood doping) so,
therefore, stripping him of the MJ based upon a (questionable)
positive testosterone test is justified, well, that gets into a whole
different philosophical discussion.

> Am I the only person on rbr who thinks this is inconsistent with his
> "reformed & tell-all" status? And that Kimmage is treating very
> carefully, making sure he doesn't "damage" the prized vehicle for the
> anti-Lance story?

I'm not sure I understand your perspective. If you hate Floyd, fine.
If you love him, that's fine, too. But your (our) feelings toward him
don't have a lot to do with what he is actually saying. Unless you are
merely saying that he has lied before so we can never believe ANYTHING
he says.

DR


== 5 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 10:09 am
From: Ronko


In article <QeidnRu1I7gGt9XQnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
b@nowhere.com says...
>
>
>On 2/1/2011 10:09 AM, ilan wrote:
>> On Feb 1, 7:31 am, Fredmaster of Brainerd<bjwei...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>> On Jan 31, 5:33 pm, ilan<ilan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Feb 1, 1:06 am, DirtRoadie<DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, "A. Dumas"<alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Ah, I guess I did not remember the details, should have looked
it up.
>>>>>> What I meant was, like you say, no verdict on the doping
allegations.
>>>>>> Which may or may not be in contradiction with Ilan's
statement.
>>>
>>>>> Yup. LA (or his people) can claim the arbitration panel "made no
>>>>> finding that I ever doped," but cannot claim the arbitration panel
>>>>> "found that I never doped." Subtle distinction - Advertising 101
>>>
>>>> You're still working with the principal misconception, which is that
>>>> it can be proved that one never doped. The same principle that
legally
>>>> you do not have to prove your innocence applies to doping, that is,
>>>> the only reasonable requirement is to disprove any one specific
>>>> charge. Therefore, your distinction is between correctness and the
>>>> fallacious thinking that is leading to the current inquisition.
>>>
>>> Dumbasses,
>>>
>>> It doesn't even matter whether one can be proven
>>> guilty or innocent of doping.
>>
>> How many times do I have to repeat this until it sinks in: The
>> principle of "innocent until proven guilty" means just that. There is
>> never any need to prove innocence, the burden of proof is on finding
>> guilt.
>>
>> -ilan
>
>The presumption is innocence is just an evidentiary rule that places the
>burden of proving a charge on the prosecution
The presumption of innocence is the basis of the criminal justice system
in the United States; critical parts of the US Constitution cover that
fundamental aspect. This presumption innocence and the entire burden of
proof placed on the prosecution goes far beyond procedural rules,
includinge allowable evidence.

== 6 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 10:34 am
From: Simply Fred


BLafferty wrote:
>> The presumption is innocence is just an evidentiary rule that places the
>> burden of proving a charge on the prosecution.

DirtRoadie wrote:
> "just an evidentiary rule..."
> Hardly. It's a foundation of the criminal law system. But you knew
> that. Right?

<http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/dm2.html>


== 7 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 10:55 am
From: DirtRoadie


On Feb 1, 11:34 am, Simply Fred <n...@mailinator.com> wrote:
> BLafferty wrote:
> >> The presumption is innocence is just an evidentiary rule that places the
> >> burden of proving a charge on the prosecution.
> DirtRoadie wrote:
> > "just an evidentiary rule..."
> > Hardly. It's a foundation of the criminal law system. But you knew
> > that. Right?
>
> <http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/dm2.html>

"with my name in Latin and everything."

"Brutus Laffertiae"

DR


== 8 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 11:03 am
From: Fred Flintstein


On 2/1/2011 11:16 AM, DirtRoadie wrote:
> I don't get anything like that from reading what FL said. He claims to
> know when he used testosterone and when he didn't and doesn't think
> the pieces can be made to fit for the positive test that brought him
> down. Even taking into account the possibility that transfused blood
> from pre- TdF-buildup was "positive" he is saying that the test still
> does not match up with a transfusion. In other words, the lab work was
> flaky regardless.
> And there's not a hint anywhere that he does not think he was
> "cheating."
> Now if you are saying he was cheating (admitted blood doping) so,
> therefore, stripping him of the MJ based upon a (questionable)
> positive testosterone test is justified, well, that gets into a whole
> different philosophical discussion.

Just a refresher, that the lab results were flaky is not in dispute.

http://www.usada.org/files/active/arbitration_rulings/Landis%20Final%20%2820-09-07%29%20%283%29.pdf

Page 83, Item 320.
----------------------------------
1. The charge of an elevated T/E ratio from the sample was not
established in accordance with the WADA International
Standard for Laboratories and is hereby dismissed.
2. The charge of exogenous testosterone being found in the
sample by the Carbon Isotope Ratio analysis is established in
accordance with the UCI Anti-Doping Regulations.
----------------------------------

It was the exogenous testosterone test that sank him.

As has been noted, his veracity is trash. He may be telling the
truth. But I'm hoping he testifies against LANCE. Watching LANCE's
legal team chop him into small bits will make great theater.

Fred Flintstein


== 9 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 11:06 am
From: marco_fennelli@yahoo.com


Brad Anders wrote:
> God knows Breukink was using, which is why Andy's victory over him on
> the Gavia is so epic.

I think tED/Susan is more difficult to troll these days because he/she
has worked his/her way into the inner circle of cutting-edge cycling
journalism and probably has less energy for visits to the lonely
outpost of outcasts known as rbr. Plus, he/she might be devastated by
Flandis' comments re Boogerd (sp?)


== 10 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 11:09 am
From: Frederick the Great


In article <4d4722e8$0$81473$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
"A. Dumas" <alexandre@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:

> ilan wrote:
> > The proof is that Armstrong has already won the
> > civil suit accusing him of doping.
>
> He never won anything. The insurance case was settled.

The case was not about doping.
The insurance company tried to make it about doping.
The court ruled that it was not about doping.
Armstrong flat out won the case.

--
Old Fritz


== 11 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 11:36 am
From: Frederick the Great


In article <ii9i8r$kku$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
Ronko <ronkreuger@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <QeidnRu1I7gGt9XQnZ2dnUVZ_uWdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> b@nowhere.com says...
> >
> >
> >On 2/1/2011 10:09 AM, ilan wrote:
> >> On Feb 1, 7:31 am, Fredmaster of Brainerd<bjwei...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> On Jan 31, 5:33 pm, ilan<ilan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Feb 1, 1:06 am, DirtRoadie<DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, "A. Dumas"<alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>> Ah, I guess I did not remember the details, should have looked
> it up.
> >>>>>> What I meant was, like you say, no verdict on the doping
> allegations.
> >>>>>> Which may or may not be in contradiction with Ilan's
> statement.
> >>>
> >>>>> Yup. LA (or his people) can claim the arbitration panel "made no
> >>>>> finding that I ever doped," but cannot claim the arbitration panel
> >>>>> "found that I never doped." Subtle distinction - Advertising 101
> >>>
> >>>> You're still working with the principal misconception, which is that
> >>>> it can be proved that one never doped. The same principle that
> legally
> >>>> you do not have to prove your innocence applies to doping, that is,
> >>>> the only reasonable requirement is to disprove any one specific
> >>>> charge. Therefore, your distinction is between correctness and the
> >>>> fallacious thinking that is leading to the current inquisition.
> >>>
> >>> Dumbasses,
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't even matter whether one can be proven
> >>> guilty or innocent of doping.
> >>
> >> How many times do I have to repeat this until it sinks in: The
> >> principle of "innocent until proven guilty" means just that. There is
> >> never any need to prove innocence, the burden of proof is on finding
> >> guilt.
> >
> >The presumption is innocence is just an evidentiary rule that places the
> >burden of proving a charge on the prosecution
> The presumption of innocence is the basis of the criminal justice system
> in the United States; critical parts of the US Constitution cover that
> fundamental aspect. This presumption innocence and the entire burden of
> proof placed on the prosecution goes far beyond procedural rules,
> includinge allowable evidence.

Y'all are taking Lafferty far too seriously.
Perry Mason put it best, though I do not
remember the exact words. It's no good
trying to dismiss a point of law as a
legal technicality. Those technicalities
are exactly what maintain our rights and
fair hearings.

--
Old Fritz


== 12 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 11:42 am
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Feb 1, 8:09 am, ilan <ilan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 7:31 am, Fredmaster of Brainerd <bjwei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 5:33 pm, ilan <ilan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 1, 1:06 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > On Jan 31, 3:59 pm, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
>
> > > > > Ah, I guess I did not remember the details, should have looked it up.
> > > > > What I meant was, like you say, no verdict on the doping allegations.
> > > > > Which may or may not be in contradiction with Ilan's statement.
>
> > > > Yup. LA (or his people) can claim  the arbitration panel "made no
> > > > finding that I ever doped," but cannot claim the arbitration panel
> > > > "found that I never doped." Subtle distinction - Advertising 101
>
> > > You're still working with the principal misconception, which is that
> > > it can be proved that one never doped. The same principle that legally
> > > you do not have to prove your innocence applies to doping, that is,
> > > the only reasonable requirement is to disprove any one specific
> > > charge. Therefore, your distinction is between correctness and the
> > > fallacious thinking that is leading to the current inquisition.
>
> > Dumbasses,
>
> > It doesn't even matter whether one can be proven
> > guilty or innocent of doping.  
>
> How many times do I have to repeat this until it sinks in: The
> principle of "innocent until proven guilty" means just that. There is
> never any need to prove innocence, the burden of proof is on finding
> guilt.
>
> -ilan

Dumbass,

Turn off the logic auto-responder and read
what I wrote for just a second.

Nowhere did I suggest that anyone has to prove
innocence of doping - or even prove innocence of fraud,
which will be the actual charge if there is one, because
*doping is not a crime in the US*.

The burden of proof in a criminal case requires
proving guilt. The burden of proof in the eyes of the
public is different. Novitsky et al may be able to
damage the LANCE by offering evidence of doping,
even if it does not rise to the level of proof. However,
the actual charge that they have to prove (fraud,
conspiracy, something like that) is different and
more subtle. It is entirely possible that they will
introduce evidence that damages LANCE on the
doping question, but that he gets cleared on the
fraud charge, in which case we can repeat this
argument about whether the trial cleared LANCE,
just like whether the SCA arbitration decision cleared
LANCE, in another 10 years.

IMO the most likely outcome is that some low-level
schmuck - somebody like Stephanie McIlvain, but
possibly someone more involved in finances or
carrying medical supplies - gets nailed for a
subsidiary offense or perjury. This will not be an
outcome that I celebrate as a victory for the
War on Dopes.

Fredmaster Ben


== 13 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:04 pm
From: Frederick the Great


In article
<e7bb7433-e9e8-4e25-ab5e-46be80074bc8@k4g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
RicodJour <ricodjour@worldemail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 1, 1:26 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> > PK:
> > What does 'worked better' mean?
> > FL:
> > It felt better.
> > the growth hormone didn't make
> > me feel as stiff and bloated as the testosterone did.
>
> So there you have it - Floid (he be null and void) road with a chubby.
>
> I think I'm going to start watching curling instead. That seems like
> a safe sport to watch.

I enjoy watching curling. Whenever I am overwrought
and worried I put in a recording of a curling event
and have a good nap.

--
Old Fritz


== 14 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:07 pm
From: Frederick the Great


In article <g_Odne8bgJ80r9XQnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@giganews.com>,
Fred Flintstein <bob.schwartz@sbcremoveglobal.net> wrote:

> On 2/1/2011 9:55 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> > I think I'm going to start watching curling instead. That seems like
> > a safe sport to watch.
>
> Dumbass, curling is the dirtiest sport there is.
>
> http://deadspin.com/5498429/swedish-wheelchair-curling-finally-has-its-doping-scandal

You can't make up stuff anymore.
I won't even try.

--
Old Fritz


== 15 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:34 pm
From: Fred Flintstein


On 2/1/2011 2:07 PM, Frederick the Great wrote:
> In article<g_Odne8bgJ80r9XQnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@giganews.com>,
> Fred Flintstein<bob.schwartz@sbcremoveglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/1/2011 9:55 AM, RicodJour wrote:
>>> I think I'm going to start watching curling instead. That seems like
>>> a safe sport to watch.
>>
>> Dumbass, curling is the dirtiest sport there is.
>>
>> http://deadspin.com/5498429/swedish-wheelchair-curling-finally-has-its-doping-scandal
>
> You can't make up stuff anymore.
> I won't even try.
>

Whatever you do, DON'T CLICK ON THIS LINK!!!

http://deadspin.com/5523182/paralympic-curler-busted-for-fake-viagra

Curling is the absolute worst.

Fred Flintstein


== 16 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:54 pm
From: --D-y


On Feb 1, 9:55 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 1:26 am, DirtRoadie <DirtRoa...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > PK:
> > What does 'worked better' mean?
> > FL:
> > It felt better.
> > the growth hormone didn't make
> > me feel as stiff and bloated as the testosterone did.
>
> So there you have it - Floid (he be null and void) road with a chubby.
>
> I think I'm going to start watching curling instead.  That seems like
> a safe sport to watch.
>
> R

Beta blockers.
--D-y


== 17 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:58 pm
From: --D-y


On Feb 1, 10:33 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 11:19 am, Fred Flintstein <bob.schwa...@sbcremoveglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > On 2/1/2011 9:55 AM, RicodJour wrote:
>
> > > I think I'm going to start watching curling instead.  That seems like
> > > a safe sport to watch.
>
> > Dumbass, curling is the dirtiest sport there is.
>
> >http://deadspin.com/5498429/swedish-wheelchair-curling-finally-has-it...
>
> 54 is an old man...?  Who lowered the bar when I wasn't looking?!
>
> I just like all of that frenetic sweeping in curling.  Cleanliness is
> next to Godliness.
>
> Dave:  Everybody cheats, I just didn't know!
> Mr. Stoller:  Now you know.
> {pats him on the back as Mrs. Stoller gets teary-eyed}
>
> R

A 54 year old man who was SHOCKED...!
Curling, beta blockers... a natural!
--D-y


== 18 of 18 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 1:16 pm
From: --D-y


On Feb 1, 12:04 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:

> I'm coming from the assumption that he did, in fact, cheat using a
> testosterone patch or whatever. I agree that the test was flawed, but at
> this point, I'm in the camp that says he failed the test because he was
> dirty, and the fact that the test might have been questionable in some
> aspects doesn't overcome a preponderance of evidence that it did detect
> testosterone that wasn't supposed to be there. The fact that he insists
> that shouldn't have been the case (that either he didn't cheat to win
> the TdF *or* he didn't cheat in the manner in which he was caught) does,
> indeed, call everything into question. The guy still isn't facing
> reality.

Um, "we still don't know what really happened" and never will. What a
bitch, huh?
I mean, the first test was so screwed that even Pound, Dick scoffed at
it in most public manner.
I read this Flaud interview as a carefully stage-managed tip-toe
through the garden, directed by a well-rehearsed founding member of
Lancehate International© who has a ton of dirt up both sleeves. IOW,
Floyd is still floundering but he is a useful pawn.
That said, I "believe" Floyd when he, in effect, says "No damn way
those crooks found any testosterone in the sample I gave, as it left
my body".

Indeed, as a later poster notes, and so appropriately from Breaking
Away: "Everyone is cheating". Well, maybe not everyone, but close
enough...

> Do I hate Floyd? No. I hate myself a bit for getting suckered into his
> pitch; I sent him some money, I even wrote him a note. I was there in
> 2006 on the mountain when he came through minutes ahead of everyone else
> and I was there when he rode off the circuit at the end. So yes, it's
> personal to some extent.

Don't hate yourself, he had a good story. We want to believe in our
fellow man. Plus, Floyd got flucked, repeatedly-- agreed?
So you helped him out a little, good on you!
--D-y

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Finally found a racing result for the new resident dope fiend
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/64754facc3436252?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 9:23 am
From: Brad Anders


On Feb 1, 8:23 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 10:47 pm, Fred Fredburger
>
> <FredFredF...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> > On 1/31/2011 6:49 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>
> > > Unless the race promoter identified him as a "Dairy Queen" this looks
> > > par for the course.
>
> > >http://www.nmcycling.org/results/2006/results/DowntownCrit.pdf
>
> > > Maybe he's both.
>
> > Kiddies, this is why you should never, EVER tell strangers your name.
>
> Anton aka "me" agrees.

Pussies.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 9:43 am
From: Choppy Warburton


On Feb 1, 11:23 am, Brad Anders <pband...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 8:23 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 31, 10:47 pm, Fred Fredburger
>
> > <FredFredF...@Where.Are.The.Nachos> wrote:
> > > On 1/31/2011 6:49 PM, Anton Berlin wrote:
>
> > > > Unless the race promoter identified him as a "Dairy Queen" this looks
> > > > par for the course.
>
> > > >http://www.nmcycling.org/results/2006/results/DowntownCrit.pdf
>
> > > > Maybe he's both.
>
> > > Kiddies, this is why you should never, EVER tell strangers your name.
>
> > Anton aka "me" agrees.
>
> Pussies.

It's common sense. Crazed nuts can find out a lot about you in less
than an hour once they have your name.

And if you end up missing in the desert no one here will even notice
you're gone

==============================================================================
TOPIC: N7LA
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/716b4c1663032b0d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 10:00 am
From: Anton Berlin


On Feb 1, 10:00 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 31, 2:57 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 31, 12:34 pm, Plano Dude <tx.wastel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > by using his own jet it doesn't matter whether he travels alone or
> > > with his chick/mom, kids, security detail, etc., the operating cost
> > > for the plane is pretty much the same so Lance does save on the
> > > expenses of paying to fly all those people with him.
>
> > EXACTLY ~! (and a hundred other flavors)    It's all legal but is it
> > ethical ?
>
> Let me know how that quest for universal agreement on ethics goes.  I
> can't wait to hear the results!
>
> R

OK done - http://www.beyondintractability.org/booksummary/10621/

Next challenge dickwit. Or do you live somewhere where it's OK for
grown men to hit children and women?

Rico - seriously - how do you figure out so many ways each day to make
a total cunt of yourself ?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:13 pm
From: Michael Press


In article
<affb2641-53da-46b1-a505-7c7bb7ec15f7@y12g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Anton Berlin <truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Feb 1, 10:00 am, RicodJour <ricodj...@worldemail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 2:57 pm, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 31, 12:34 pm, Plano Dude <tx.wastel...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > by using his own jet it doesn't matter whether he travels alone or
> > > > with his chick/mom, kids, security detail, etc., the operating cost
> > > > for the plane is pretty much the same so Lance does save on the
> > > > expenses of paying to fly all those people with him.
> >
> > > EXACTLY ~! (and a hundred other flavors)    It's all legal but is it
> > > ethical ?
> >
> > Let me know how that quest for universal agreement on ethics goes.  I
> > can't wait to hear the results!
>
> OK done - http://www.beyondintractability.org/booksummary/10621/

Summary of the summary. Everybody has a moral sense
and everybody is in agreement about what it says in
each situation. Problem solved.

--
Michael Press

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Liz Hatch Update
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/04bd2b3a589ba68b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 10:10 am
From: Ronko


In article <6a8039a4-a777-43d1-a3dd-
06998f41769f@g1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
truth_88888@yahoo.com says...
>
>
>On Feb 1, 2:44�am, Ronko <ronkreu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <521e2248-b9d4-424d-ab71-
>> cae5d1270...@o18g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>> pholma...@gmail.com says...
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Jan 31, 12:16 pm, Mark <msamb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >> On Jan 30, 11:46 am, Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> > On Jan 30, 10:07 am, TheCoz <cycled...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> >> > > On Jan 30, 9:45 am, Zenon <zenon_jask...@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > .
>> >> > > >
.http://twitter.com/Liz_Hatch/status/30617373052502016
>> >> > > > .
>> >> > > > .
>>
>> >> > > STD
>> >> > > Coz
>>
>> >> > That's a huge leap of faith Coz - as it assumes that someone
would
>> be
>> >> > willing to sleep with her without using rubber gloves,
condoms and
>> 2
>> >> > quarts of disinfectant as recommend by the United Nations
Health
>> Guide
>> >> > - 'Sleeping with LH - A Safety and Survival Guide 2010
Edition IV"
>> >> > Little know fact that this pamphlet has been translated into
over
>> 178
>> >> > languages as part of the UNs effort to eradicate STDs
worldwide.
>>
>> >> This reminds me of an interview on the Howard Stern Show
with a
>> guy
>> >> who screwed Paris Hilton at her house. He was desperate to
>> disinfect
>> >> his crotch after the encounter so he cleaned himself with the
first
>> >> item he could find: a bottle of Drano.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> >I heard Paris did the same thing.
>>
>> At least Paris got paid in cash.
>
>8 pack of Energizer D-cells is better than cash for Liz - saves her a
>trip to Wal-Mart.
Cash or good in kind. Ms. Hatch needs the batteries for?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:02 pm
From: dave a


On 2/1/2011 10:10 AM, Ronko wrote:
> In article<6a8039a4-a777-43d1-a3dd-
> 06998f41769f@g1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
> truth_88888@yahoo.com says...
>>
>>
>> On Feb 1, 2:44 am, Ronko<ronkreu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article<521e2248-b9d4-424d-ab71-
>>> cae5d1270...@o18g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
>>> pholma...@gmail.com says...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Jan 31, 12:16 pm, Mark<msamb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Jan 30, 11:46 am, Anton Berlin<truth_88...@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 30, 10:07 am, TheCoz<cycled...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 30, 9:45 am, Zenon<zenon_jask...@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
> .http://twitter.com/Liz_Hatch/status/30617373052502016
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> .
>>>
>>>>>>> STD
>>>>>>> Coz
>>>
>>>>>> That's a huge leap of faith Coz - as it assumes that someone
> would
>>> be
>>>>>> willing to sleep with her without using rubber gloves,
> condoms and
>>> 2
>>>>>> quarts of disinfectant as recommend by the United Nations
> Health
>>> Guide
>>>>>> - 'Sleeping with LH - A Safety and Survival Guide 2010
> Edition IV"
>>>>>> Little know fact that this pamphlet has been translated into
> over
>>> 178
>>>>>> languages as part of the UNs effort to eradicate STDs
> worldwide.
>>>
>>>>> This reminds me of an interview on the Howard Stern Show
> with a
>>> guy
>>>>> who screwed Paris Hilton at her house. He was desperate to
>>> disinfect
>>>>> his crotch after the encounter so he cleaned himself with the
> first
>>>>> item he could find: a bottle of Drano.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>>> I heard Paris did the same thing.
>>>
>>> At least Paris got paid in cash.
>>
>> 8 pack of Energizer D-cells is better than cash for Liz - saves her a
>> trip to Wal-Mart.
> Cash or good in kind. Ms. Hatch needs the batteries for?
>

Here's a hint, it's not for her Gruber, although that might not be a bad
idea.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mr. Vaughters
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/f4a7f041c71016e6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:21 pm
From: Frederick the Great


In article
<14fe9246-83bb-48c4-a847-5961b2486527@8g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
Anton Berlin <truth_88888@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Jan 30, 11:28 pm, Frederick the Great <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <bd3b1006-f072-4b7c-ab6e-af0f9ed49...@o39g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
> >  Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 30, 1:18 pm, Frederick the Great <rub...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <fa4968bf-c311-4ed1-a9dd-c2fe97112...@u11g2000prk.googlegroups.com>,
> > > >  Anton Berlin <truth_88...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > The secret as any pizzaiolo will tell you is the dough.  I've been
> > > > > making bread for 20 + years from a parisian culture that was 153 years
> > > > > old when I got it.  I've been trained by one of the most well known
> > > > > artisan bakers in the world only to advance my ability to make
> > > > > pizza.
> >
> > > > 153 years old. I can get a first rate sour dough
> > > > culture going in a month. Any baker can.
> >
> > > Age isn't everything - but these older cultures do have a remarkable
> > > way of staying alive after dormancy.  I keep several others and steal
> > > versions where ever I am able.  Many of them I throw away after a
> > > month or so because they don't proof out to be better than anything I
> > > already have and there is a risk from them infecting one of my prized
> > > cultures that I keep 2 separate samples of at all times and pull and
> > > store a dry sample from once every year.
> >
> > > I have a 300 yr old version that sleeps for 6 months in the fridge and
> > > after 3 or 4 feedings it ferments like a teenager.
> > > But as a baker will tell you it's not just the yeast but the symbiosis
> > > between the yeast and the bacteria.  What ever is in my culture known
> > > as "Paris A" and "B" is unique to any breads I've ever had.    Even
> > > the 800 yr old + breads in Prague and Paris don't have the complexity
> > > that this one has.
> >
> > > Lastly Fritz - your wrong in generalizing that just access to the
> > > ingredients is enough to make good bread - just as access to a Colnago
> > > doesn't make one a good cyclist.
> >
> > No reason for you to infer that from what I said.
> >
> > > I have been making bread for 20+ years and each year I learn more
> > > about it than all of the previous years put together.   Understanding
> > > finer points such as 'falling number' extensibility, hydration
> > > impacts, alpha amylase activity, impacts of autolysing, retarding ,
> > > temperature manipulations and their interactions have gone to make
> > > some of the best breads (and pizzas) I've ever made but still I have a
> > > lot to learn.
> >
> > Yes. I dabble and wing it; but am good with growing things
> > so my efforts work out well. I appreciate that you put the work
> > into the finer points, and do not expect to match it.
> >
> > One of my revelations was how sweet sourdough flapjacks can be.
>
> I am doing what I can to learn to grow things. Mainly basil, oregano,
> thyme, rosemary and garlic.
>
> I am confused as to what may be eating the leaves of my windowsill
> basil. Never seen a single bug but a good 10% of the leaves look as
> if grasshoppers ate them.

It's a jungle out there.
Probably grasshoppers; maybe larvae.
Look under all the leaves.

--
Old Fritz


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Re: Medarticles Article request, please

Buzz It
Thanks !
Bob

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Medarticles Metabolic Disorders, and Skeletal Dysplasias

Buzz It

Hi dear friends can any body send me the link of  this book /Taybi and Lachman's Radiology Of Syndromes, Metabolic Disorders, and Skeletal Dysplasias

bestregard


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Re: Medarticles Article request, please

Buzz It
enclosed

anand
http://www.indiasarkarinaukri.com/

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 6:06 AM, bob <toroide@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi everyone. Cold someone give me access to article :

Paulus W.E. et al
Influence of acupuncture on the pregnancy rate in patients who undergo
assisted reproduction therapy. Fertility and Sterility, Volume 77,
Issue 4, Pages 721-724
PMID: 11937123
http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282(01)03273-3/pdf
Can´t find DOI


Thanks

Bob
toroide@
gmail.com

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Re: Medarticles articles required 1/02/11

Buzz It

1,2,3 sent
No access to 4th

anand
http://www.indiasarkarinaukri.com/

On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:13 PM, PERMENDER RATHEE <ratheepermender@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Plz help with the following articles. Thanks in advance

1. Pharmaceutical development and clinical effectiveness of a novel
gel technology for transdermal drug delivery
Alberti I, Grenier A, Kraus H, Carrara DN
Expert Opinion on Drug Delivery
2005, Sep 2(5), 935-50
(doi: 10.1517/17425247.2.5.935)

2. The Fractal Approach to Secondary Mechanisms in SEC
R. García-Lopera; Juan E. Figueruelo; Iolanda Porcar; Agustín Campos;
Concepción Abad
Journal of Liquid Chromatography & Related Technologies, 1520-572X,
Volume 30, Issue 9, 2007, Pages 1227 – 1249
DOI: 10.1080/10826070701274411

3. Methoxyphenyl Porphyrin Derivatives as Phototherapeutic Agents
M. Elisa Milanesio, M. Gabriela Alvarez and Edgardo N. Durantini
Current Bioactive Compounds, Volume 6, Number 2, 2010, Pp. 97-105
DOI: 10.2174/157340710793237326

4. Recent Applications of Grape Polyphenols in Foods, Beverages and
Supplements
Andrea P.B. Gollucke
Recent Patents on Food, Nutrition & Agriculture
2010, Volume 2 Issue 2, pp.105-109 (5)
doi: 10.2174/1876142911002020105

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12911 Egypt fire singes India

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Egypt fire singes India
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Egypt-fire-singes-India/Article1-657002.aspx

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 IPS men unite, raise funds to defend officer

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IPS men unite, raise funds to defend officer
http://www.hindustantimes.com/IPS-men-unite-raise-funds-to-defend-officer/Article1-656960.aspx

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Egyptian journalist: this is no 'Brotherhood takeover'

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Egyptian journalist: this is no 'Brotherhood takeover'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12325287

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Afghans plan to stop child soldiers

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Afghans plan to stop child soldiers
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/133662/afghans-plan-stop-child-soldiers.html

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 'Sham' US university blames Indian staffer for immigration fraud

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'Sham' US university blames Indian staffer for immigration fraud
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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12911 India will ask how dubious university was allowed to function

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India will ask how dubious university was allowed to function
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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 A quarter-million flood into Cairo, demand Mubarak's ouster

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A quarter-million flood into Cairo, demand Mubarak's ouster
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/A-quarter-million-flood-into-Cairo-demand-Mubaraks-ouster/articleshow/7403870.cms

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Cop deployed to guard man molests his daughter

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Cop deployed to guard man molests his daughter
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Cop-deployed-to-guard-man-molests-his-daughter/articleshow/7402484.cms

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Son keeps father's last wish, refuses to become a lekhpal

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Son keeps father's last wish, refuses to become a lekhpal
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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Denied visa to visit ailing mom, NRI moves HC

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Denied visa to visit ailing mom, NRI moves HC
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/chennai/Denied-visa-to-visit-ailing-mom-NRI-moves-HC/articleshow/7399915.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Assam government's 'ghost employees'

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Assam government's 'ghost employees'
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/guwahati/Assam-governments-ghost-employees/articleshow/7405040.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 'Monastery land holdings temporary'

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'Monastery land holdings temporary'
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Monastery-land-holdings-temporary/articleshow/7404864.cms

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Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Bangladesh jails another 111 border guards for mutiny

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Bangladesh jails another 111 border guards for mutiny
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/Bangladesh-jails-another-111-border-guards-for-mutiny/articleshow/7403827.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Art for laugh's sake

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Art for laugh's sake
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/Art-for-laughs-sake/articleshow/7398523.cms

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Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 The Sound Of Silence

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The Sound Of Silence
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/The-Sound-Of-Silence/articleshow/7398514.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Winning The Peace

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Winning The Peace
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/Winning-The-Peace/articleshow/7398519.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Dalit girl raped by three, sold for Rs 50,000

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Dalit girl raped by three, sold for Rs 50,000
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Dalit-girl-raped-by-three-sold-for-Rs-50000/articleshow/7400509.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 32-year-old arrested for raping child

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32-year-old arrested for raping child
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/32-year-old-arrested-for-raping-child/articleshow/7399885.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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[socialactionfoundationforequity:12910 Lifer to two for mass rape

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Lifer to two for mass rape
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/allahabad/Lifer-to-two-for-mass-rape/articleshow/7400327.cms

--
Truth resides in every human heart, and one has to search for it there, and to be guided by truth as one sees it. But no one has a right to coerce others to act according to his own view of truth. - Mohandas Gandhi

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gsk

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