Thursday, April 14, 2011

rec.bicycles.racing - 25 new messages in 7 topics - digest

Buzz It
rec.bicycles.racing
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing?hl=en

rec.bicycles.racing@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* ONLY FOR MEN - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c9a650ebb97fd511?hl=en
* Not a good day for the Rainbow Jersey - 4 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b49f1e65d62cb05b?hl=en
* It's all about the hat. Who knew? - 5 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b4bd6770e35b9877?hl=en
* They got Bonds on obstructing justice - 11 messages, 8 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b4b87a81261d69f4?hl=en
* Vuelta a Castilla y Leon - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/db92f7706b559c51?hl=en
* 20110208 Update on Jobst - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bedcc49318390206?hl=en
* Sweet bike - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4adda2797daca85a?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ONLY FOR MEN
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/c9a650ebb97fd511?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Apr 13 2011 10:05 pm
From: rama rao

hot katrina kaif wallpapers
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new hot sruthi hassan stills
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namitha hot sexy stills
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deepika padukone new stills
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hot tamanna sexy wallpapers
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beautiful aishwariya rai
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diya mirza sexy photos
http://cinyworld96.blogspot.com/2011/03/diya-mirza.html
stunning beauty sneha
http://cinyworld96.blogspot.com/2011/03/sneha.html
unbelivable iliyana photos
http://cinyworld96.blogspot.com/2011/03/iliyana.html
priyamani beautiful stills
http://cinyworld96.blogspot.com/2011/03/priyamani.html
pranitha in half saree
http://cinyworld96.blogspot.com/2011/03/pranitha.html
richa saree stills
http://cinyworld96.blogspot.com/2011/03/richa-gangopadyay.html

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Not a good day for the Rainbow Jersey
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b49f1e65d62cb05b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 4:15 am
From: "A. Dumas"


sam wrote:
>> On Apr 13, 7:58 pm, "Fred on a stick" wrote:
>>> Here's something I hadn't known: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudyCkMaQcg
>
> Where's the team car?

Knaven was DS in the team car. He explained that they were too far ahead
for radio reception, so they wouldn't have heard him anyway, and also
that they were behind their first riders in the race and weren't going
to stop & wait for 5-10 minutes to help him. Arvesen finally gave up
after 20 km without a saddle and got in a random car from another team
(meaning he didn't finish; it wasn't the last 20 km of the race).


== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 6:34 am
From: --D-y


On Apr 14, 6:15 am, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
> sam wrote:
> >> On Apr 13, 7:58 pm, "Fred on a stick" wrote:
> >>> Here's something I hadn't known:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudyCkMaQcg
>
> > Where's the team car?
>
> Knaven was DS in the team car. He explained that they were too far ahead
> for radio reception, so they wouldn't have heard him anyway, and also
> that they were behind their first riders in the race and weren't going
> to stop & wait for 5-10 minutes to help him. Arvesen finally gave up
> after 20 km without a saddle and got in a random car from another team
> (meaning he didn't finish; it wasn't the last 20 km of the race).

He QUIT!?!?!?
<http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/whitehead.htm>
--D-y


== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 9:34 am
From: RicodJour


On Apr 14, 9:34 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 6:15 am, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
>
> > sam wrote:
> > >> On Apr 13, 7:58 pm, "Fred on a stick" wrote:
> > >>> Here's something I hadn't known:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudyCkMaQcg
>
> > > Where's the team car?
>
> > Knaven was DS in the team car. He explained that they were too far ahead
> > for radio reception, so they wouldn't have heard him anyway, and also
> > that they were behind their first riders in the race and weren't going
> > to stop & wait for 5-10 minutes to help him. Arvesen finally gave up
> > after 20 km without a saddle and got in a random car from another team
> > (meaning he didn't finish; it wasn't the last 20 km of the race).
>
> He QUIT!?!?!?
> <http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/whitehead.htm>

In some of those pictures, the B&W ones where she appears a
bit...chilly, Cindy looks like an old girlfriend. She called me a
selfish lover. Gwen, if you're reading this - what was your
point? :)

R


== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:20 am
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Apr 14, 6:34 am, --D-y <dustoyev...@mac.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 6:15 am, "A. Dumas" <alexan...@dumas.fr.invalid> wrote:
>
> > sam wrote:
> > >> On Apr 13, 7:58 pm, "Fred on a stick" wrote:
> > >>> Here's something I hadn't known:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudyCkMaQcg
>
> > > Where's the team car?
>
> > Knaven was DS in the team car. He explained that they were too far ahead
> > for radio reception, so they wouldn't have heard him anyway, and also
> > that they were behind their first riders in the race and weren't going
> > to stop & wait for 5-10 minutes to help him. Arvesen finally gave up
> > after 20 km without a saddle and got in a random car from another team
> > (meaning he didn't finish; it wasn't the last 20 km of the race).
>
> He QUIT!?!?!?
> <http://sonic.net/~ckelly/Seekay/whitehead.htm>
> --D-y

He knew he wasn't the #1 rider on his team, and
didn't want to cause a controversy if he accidentally
got into the front group.

Fredmaster Ben

==============================================================================
TOPIC: It's all about the hat. Who knew?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b4bd6770e35b9877?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 4:57 am
From: Amit Ghosh


On Apr 13, 10:26 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
> I claim first bragging rights on rbr to a small hat size.
>

maybe you should consider switching to swimming.


== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:17 am
From: Fredmaster of Brainerd


On Apr 13, 7:26 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> "Vagina Gorilla" <vaginagori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870355130457626131251246...
>
> I claim first bragging rights on rbr to a small hat size.
>

Having a small hat size is like being a pro cyclist
with a natural hematocrit of 38. Just think of it as
more room for improvement!

Fredmaster Ben


== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:45 am
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"Fredmaster of Brainerd" <bjweiner@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:731c1af3-ec50-4a5a-ba75-fee621c57f83@a21g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 13, 7:26 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> "Vagina Gorilla" <vaginagori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870355130457626131251246...
>
> I claim first bragging rights on rbr to a small hat size.
>
=========
Having a small hat size is like being a pro cyclist
with a natural hematocrit of 38. Just think of it as
more room for improvement!

Fredmaster Ben
=========

I'm thinking people didn't read the article very carefully. It discussed an
inverse relationship between... man, do I really have to spell these things
out for people?

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 12:34 pm
From: "Kurgan Gringioni"

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote in message
news:3uydncP0d9b5xjvQnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
: "Vagina Gorilla" <vaginagorilla@gmail.com> wrote in message
: news:8a268a3f-80ce-4a50-a3d1-164589b0981e@dr5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
: >
: >
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703551304576261312512463444.html
:
: I claim first bragging rights on rbr to a small hat size.

Dumbass -

Does the condom slide off during sex then? You get a lotta girls pregnant?

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.


== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 1:52 pm
From: Simply Fred


Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
> : I claim first bragging rights on rbr to a small hat size.

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> Does the condom slide off during sex then? You get a lotta girls pregnant?

This is rbr. Condoms sliding off in a fleshlight is low risk.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: They got Bonds on obstructing justice
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/b4b87a81261d69f4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 5:35 am
From: Fred


On Apr 13, 9:22 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
>NOBODY likes Barry Bonds. Lance, I'm sure, does
> a whole lot better in polling.
>
> Call me... not impressed. Call Lance... not too worried.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Are you sure?

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/umedia/20110414/largeimage.e30fbb4688ab2c5e995ce728a88ed2d1.gif

Fred


== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 7:53 am
From: Jim Feeley


"Mike Jacoubowsky" <MikeJ@ChainReaction.com> wrote:

> "Vagina Gorilla" <vaginagorilla@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9e61130e-00d2-4ab3-91ef-3829622b2cc7@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>> Lance will be convicted for obstructing the Olsen Twins
>
> So how does this read? Novitsky's too incompetent to nail someone whose
> ex-mistress graphically details the changes to his gonads caused by steroids
> in a way that would scare the crap out of most high school wrestlers &
> football players? I mean c'mon, if you can't get Bonds on something so
> obvious...
>
> Or are we going to see people thinking that now Novitsky's got time to do
> things right, and that Lance doesn't have as much star-power as Barry Bonds
> and thus will be easier to convict? I think he's got another thing coming if
> that's his thinking, because NOBODY likes Barry Bonds. Lance, I'm sure, does
> a whole lot better in polling.
>
> Call me... not impressed. Call Lance... not too worried.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycles
> www.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Don't look to Jeff Novitzky here. Look to the murkiness of the questions
directed to Bonds during his Grand Jury questioning, the refusal of Greg
Anderson to testify, Dr. Arthur Ting's testimony that completely contradicted
that of another prosecution witness, and (according to some trial lawyers) the
performance of the US Attorneys. Novitzky's testimony was solid, but not at the
heart of this case... And once the trial starts, things are more in the hands of
the lawyers than the investigators; you know, like on Law & Order, Special
Doping Unit.

The Lance case, what little I know about it, is pretty different from all the
BALCO-related cases. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.

But let's ask: Did Novitzky achieve his goal? The answer might be yes.

Jim

--
Jim
Jim Feeley
POV Media

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 7:56 am
From: William Fred


Fred <fred.garvin@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:18faf181-5173-45f8-b57d-9cb94b3feb72@a21g2000prj.googlegroups.com:

> On Apr 13, 9:22 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>>NOBODY likes Barry Bonds. Lance, I'm sure, does
>> a whole lot better in polling.
>>
>> Call me... not impressed. Call Lance... not too worried.
>>
>
> Are you sure?
>
> http://d.yimg.com/a/p/umedia/20110414/largeimage.e30fbb4688ab2c5e995ce7
> 28a88ed2d1.gif

Right. And given that now all juries in the U.S. are composed entirely
of Frenchmen, Armstrong is probably wandering around his house going "I
wonder if that light fixture would support my weight."

--
Bill Fred


== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 9:06 am
From: Choppy Warburton


On Apr 13, 9:22 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
> "Vagina Gorilla" <vaginagori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9e61130e-00d2-4ab3-91ef-3829622b2cc7@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > Lance will be convicted for obstructing the Olsen Twins
>
> So how does this read? Novitsky's too incompetent to nail someone whose
> ex-mistress graphically details the changes to his gonads caused by steroids
> in a way that would scare the crap out of most high school wrestlers &
> football players? I mean c'mon, if you can't get Bonds on something so
> obvious...
>
> Or are we going to see people thinking that now Novitsky's got time to do
> things right, and that Lance doesn't have as much star-power as Barry Bonds
> and thus will be easier to convict? I think he's got another thing coming if
> that's his thinking, because NOBODY likes Barry Bonds. Lance, I'm sure, does
> a whole lot better in polling.
>
> Call me... not impressed. Call Lance... not too worried.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Lance is already one of the most detestable cunts on the planet


== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 9:59 am
From: Fred


On Apr 14, 11:06 am, Choppy Warburton <choppywarbur...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> On Apr 13, 9:22 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Vagina Gorilla" <vaginagori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:9e61130e-00d2-4ab3-91ef-3829622b2cc7@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > Lance will be convicted for obstructing the Olsen Twins
>
> > So how does this read? Novitsky's too incompetent to nail someone whose
> > ex-mistress graphically details the changes to his gonads caused by steroids
> > in a way that would scare the crap out of most high school wrestlers &
> > football players? I mean c'mon, if you can't get Bonds on something so
> > obvious...
>
> > Or are we going to see people thinking that now Novitsky's got time to do
> > things right, and that Lance doesn't have as much star-power as Barry Bonds
> > and thus will be easier to convict? I think he's got another thing coming if
> > that's his thinking, because NOBODY likes Barry Bonds. Lance, I'm sure, does
> > a whole lot better in polling.
>
> > Call me... not impressed. Call Lance... not too worried.
>
> > --Mike Jacoubowsky
> > Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> > Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> Lance is already one of the most detestable cunts on the planet

No, with the exception of a few diehard haters, many of them regulars
on RBR, he's actually pretty well respected. You may detest him, but
most don't.

Fred


== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 10:27 am
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"Fred" <fred.garvin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18faf181-5173-45f8-b57d-9cb94b3feb72@a21g2000prj.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 13, 9:22 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
wrote:
>NOBODY likes Barry Bonds. Lance, I'm sure, does
> a whole lot better in polling.
>
> Call me... not impressed. Call Lance... not too worried.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

========
Are you sure?

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/umedia/20110414/largeimage.e30fbb4688ab2c5e995ce728a88ed2d1.gif

Fred
========

Funny, but seriously out of date. Lance made a lot of fans in France
when he did the French thing by becoming the "heroic loser" when he took
3rd. Pretty amazing to see. That won the French Press over, because they
love to write of epic battles lost. Very different style of sports
writing in France than here.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:22 am
From: "William R. Mattil"


On 4/14/2011 11:06 AM, Choppy Warburton wrote:

>
> Lance is already one of the most detestable cunts on the planet

One of ABs sock puppets ?


Bill
--

William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com


== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 12:32 pm
From: "Kurgan Gringioni"

"Jim Feeley" <jfeeley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9CC43429-D9EC-445C-A267-653AEA286C41%jfeeley@gmail.com...
:
: The Lance case, what little I know about it, is pretty different from all
the
: BALCO-related cases. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.
:
: But let's ask: Did Novitzky achieve his goal? The answer might be yes.

Dumbass -

He did not.

Obstruction of justice means Bonds over-obfuscated to the grand jury. It's
not jack. The other BALCO people who got that particular conviction didn't
do jail time. Home confinement.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.


== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 2:35 pm
From: Jim Feeley


"Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> "Jim Feeley" <jfeeley@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9CC43429-D9EC-445C-A267-653AEA286C41%jfeeley@gmail.com...
> :
> : The Lance case, what little I know about it, is pretty different from all
> the
> : BALCO-related cases. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns.
> :
> : But let's ask: Did Novitzky achieve his goal? The answer might be yes.
>
>
>
> Dumbass -
>
> He did not.
>
> Obstruction of justice means Bonds over-obfuscated to the grand jury. It's
> not jack. The other BALCO people who got that particular conviction didn't
> do jail time. Home confinement.
>
> thanks,
>
> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.


Novitzky did if his goal was to (perhaps deservedly) trash the reputation of
Bonds and a bunch of other athletes and "lift the veil" off PED use in track
and basball. If the question was "did the US Attorneys achieve their goal?"
then I'd agree with you.

Home confinement isn't much. But more significantly, Trevor Graham is driving a
bus (last I knew). Tammy Thomas isn't in law school.

you're welcome,

Jim
--
Jim
Jim Feeley
POV Media

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 3:02 pm
From: Fred Flintstein


On 4/14/2011 9:56 AM, William Fred wrote:
> Fred<fred.garvin@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:18faf181-5173-45f8-b57d-9cb94b3feb72@a21g2000prj.googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Apr 13, 9:22 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky"<Mi...@ChainReaction.com>
>> wrote:
>>> NOBODY likes Barry Bonds. Lance, I'm sure, does
>>> a whole lot better in polling.
>>>
>>> Call me... not impressed. Call Lance... not too worried.
>>>
>>
>> Are you sure?
>>
>> http://d.yimg.com/a/p/umedia/20110414/largeimage.e30fbb4688ab2c5e995ce7
>> 28a88ed2d1.gif
>
> Right. And given that now all juries in the U.S. are composed entirely
> of Frenchmen, Armstrong is probably wandering around his house going "I
> wonder if that light fixture would support my weight."
>

Dumbass,

He's negotiating his plea bargain to testify against Wiesel. I can't
believe everyone has forgotten about Wiesel.

Fred Flintstein


== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 3:46 pm
From: "Mike Jacoubowsky"


"Jim Feeley" <jfeeley@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9A5BE904-21E4-4540-AC68-AE0439B75D81%jfeeley@gmail.com...
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <kgringioni@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Jim Feeley" <jfeeley@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:9CC43429-D9EC-445C-A267-653AEA286C41%jfeeley@gmail.com...
>> :
>> : The Lance case, what little I know about it, is pretty different from
>> all
>> the
>> : BALCO-related cases. Past performance is no guarantee of future
>> returns.
>> :
>> : But let's ask: Did Novitzky achieve his goal? The answer might be yes.
>>
>>
>>
>> Dumbass -
>>
>> He did not.
>>
>> Obstruction of justice means Bonds over-obfuscated to the grand jury.
>> It's
>> not jack. The other BALCO people who got that particular conviction
>> didn't
>> do jail time. Home confinement.
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
>
>
> Novitzky did if his goal was to (perhaps deservedly) trash the reputation
> of
> Bonds and a bunch of other athletes and "lift the veil" off PED use in
> track
> and basball. If the question was "did the US Attorneys achieve their
> goal?"
> then I'd agree with you.
>
> Home confinement isn't much. But more significantly, Trevor Graham is
> driving a
> bus (last I knew). Tammy Thomas isn't in law school.
>
> you're welcome,
>
> Jim
> --
> Jim
> Jim Feeley
> POV Media

I don't think it likely Barry Bonds will have to drive a bus anytime soon.
Nothing Novitsky (or accomplices) has done will have had much, if any,
impact on Barry Bonds' financial situation. Nor is it likely that other
athletes are going to look at this case and say "Oh my goodness, I'd better
not dope because look what happened to Barry Bonds' career!"

Too little, much too late.

Trevor who? And Tammy? You're talking horses of an entirely different color
from Barry Bonds. Marion Jones would be a much better example. Neither
Treovr nor Tammy could afford anything close to the quality of legal counsel
that Barry (or Lance) can.

How many years have gone past without ANYTHING of substance (with the
exception of Marion Jones) coming out of all of this? How could it possibly
be considered worthy of such effort? If Novitsky wants to make a difference,
he needs to go after the people at the top, not athletes, not coaches even,
but the team owners. Make it clear that nobody is above the law, and maybe
you'll see a change in attitude

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA


==============================================================================
TOPIC: Vuelta a Castilla y Leon
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/db92f7706b559c51?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 6:58 am
From: Davey Crockett


Language is ES

andd watch the times to - they are EU

but you might get lucky at
http://www.fromsportcom.com/c-9.html

Go to the Cycling tab

--
Davey.
The ban on Queers in Britain donating blood is being lifted because it
was decided that the rule could be discriminatory and might breach
equality legislation.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 20110208 Update on Jobst
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/bedcc49318390206?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 10:26 am
From: wizardB


On 2/9/2011 11:38 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 2/9/2011 10:32 AM, Cicero Venatio wrote:
>>
>>> I can relate. Broke a tib once. Compound fracture. Full length cast,
>>> toes to top of the thigh. One legged ergo is not fun. Damn that
>>> traffic island and the pole that is mounted in it.
>>>
>>> Sounds like Jobst has some other complications. Nasty business. Hope
>>> he makes a steady recovery.
>>>
>>> JS.
>> ---------------
>> Something don't add up here, and I think it's because of a taboo in rbr,
>> a word no can mention or they'll be scorched by the others, but I'm a
>> brave and don't give a damn about what the sheep think, so I'll say the
>> word, "helmet??", so there I did it.
>
>
> I have not seen any suggestion that Jobst suffered a head injury. Does
> anyone know different?
>
> Steve
>
Heal up quick Jobst summers coming!


== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 10:27 am
From: wizardB


On 2/9/2011 11:38 AM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 2/9/2011 10:32 AM, Cicero Venatio wrote:
>>
>>> I can relate. Broke a tib once. Compound fracture. Full length cast,
>>> toes to top of the thigh. One legged ergo is not fun. Damn that
>>> traffic island and the pole that is mounted in it.
>>>
>>> Sounds like Jobst has some other complications. Nasty business. Hope
>>> he makes a steady recovery.
>>>
>>> JS.
>> ---------------
>> Something don't add up here, and I think it's because of a taboo in rbr,
>> a word no can mention or they'll be scorched by the others, but I'm a
>> brave and don't give a damn about what the sheep think, so I'll say the
>> word, "helmet??", so there I did it.
>
>
> I have not seen any suggestion that Jobst suffered a head injury. Does
> anyone know different?
>
> Steve
>
Heal up quick Jobst summers coming!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sweet bike
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/t/4adda2797daca85a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:43 am
From: ronaldo_jeremiah


Very tasteful.

http://www.cycleexif.com/colnago-c35

-rj


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Goodnews!!

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alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets - 25 new messages in 3 topics - digest

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Today's topics:

* OT: The political compas - 10 messages, 6 authors
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* Sanchez "When Obama Shows His Birth Certificate, I'll Show Mine!" - 10
messages, 4 authors
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: The political compas
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/56ce2c579c1c699b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Wed, Apr 13 2011 10:00 pm
From: Tutor


On Apr 13, 11:24 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> Care to take the test and share ???
>
> http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi

I am in the same "green" zone. I am just over 3 units to the left and
just below 3 units down toward libertarian.

I have no doubt that all of the latter questions about sex brought me
to that "green" zone. Exclude those and no doubt, I would have been
more "authoritative and right".


== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 4:00 am
From: Ritchie


On Apr 13, 11:24 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> Care to take the test and share ???
>
> http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi

In the red, authoritarian (really no surprise)

Economic Left/Right: -2.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.18


== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 6:24 am
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 1:00 am, Tutor <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 11:24 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> > Care to take the test and share ???
>
> >http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> > I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi
>
> I am in the same "green" zone.  I am just over 3 units to the left and
> just below 3 units down toward libertarian.
>
> I have no doubt that all of the latter questions about sex brought me
> to that "green" zone.  Exclude those and no doubt, I would have been
> more "authoritative and right".

same here... the last group of questions put me to the left... on
social issues, I am about as far to the left as you can get. on the
order vs. control issues I am libertarian. on the fiscal stuff, I
rank as a right winger. still...my score makes me look like one of
those leftists that wants the money to come falling out of the sky on
to those that have learned not to help themselves.


== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 6:39 am
From: "Papa Carl"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0e5d7bc3-8347-43f6-baba-aa310e9c2b39@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
> I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> Care to take the test and share ???
>
> http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi


And no surprise...I'm to the left and below you. I do have an issue with
the scaling on the test though. I found myself being forced to either agree
or disagree with quite a few questions that I'm truly neutral on....I'm old
and I flat out don't give a damn about some stuff.


== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 7:15 am
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 9:39 am, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:0e5d7bc3-8347-43f6-baba-aa310e9c2b39@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> > Care to take the test and share ???
>
> >http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> > I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi
>
> And no surprise...I'm to the left and below you.  I do have an issue with
> the scaling on the test though.  I found myself being forced to either agree
> or disagree with quite a few questions that I'm truly neutral on....I'm old
> and I flat out don't give a damn about some stuff.


How would you classify a person fiscally speaking, that does not
believe in socialism AT ALL, but thinks a few things should be
"socialized" ??? IMHO... In order to really give people an equal
chance, everyone must have two things served up on a platter for
them. In life, if you can get a doctor when you need one and a
teacher when you want one, IHMO, you have nothing left to complain
about no matter how flat you fall on your face. I don't know how you
would do it, but medical care and education up to the highest level
should be "FREE" for every single person. Not the bull shit we have
now. It should be where all you have to do is demonstrate that you
want higher education, and thus, you can go from grade school to IV
league unencumbered. Same deal with medicine. You need it, you get
it, no matter where or who you are or how little you earn. Beyond
those two things being completely accessible, the rest of life is up
to you. If you suck, you suck. If you fail, you fail. Only when
education and medical care is truly guaranteed for all can you really
embrace law of the jungle and true libertarian principles. Any way...
That's what I want. Education and medicine at your disposal and after
that, go see Ayn Rand if you suck.

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 9:28 am
From: "Papa Carl"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:f5574136-34e2-42d2-bd12-428732e8845f@t16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 14, 9:39 am, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:0e5d7bc3-8347-43f6-baba-aa310e9c2b39@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> > Care to take the test and share ???
>
> >http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> > I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi
>
> And no surprise...I'm to the left and below you. I do have an issue with
> the scaling on the test though. I found myself being forced to either
> agree
> or disagree with quite a few questions that I'm truly neutral on....I'm
> old
> and I flat out don't give a damn about some stuff.


How would you classify a person fiscally speaking, that does not
believe in socialism AT ALL, but thinks a few things should be
"socialized" ??? IMHO... In order to really give people an equal
chance, everyone must have two things served up on a platter for
them. In life, if you can get a doctor when you need one and a
teacher when you want one, IHMO, you have nothing left to complain
about no matter how flat you fall on your face. I don�t know how you
would do it, but medical care and education up to the highest level
should be "FREE" for every single person. Not the bull shit we have
now. It should be where all you have to do is demonstrate that you
want higher education, and thus, you can go from grade school to IV
league unencumbered. Same deal with medicine. You need it, you get
it, no matter where or who you are or how little you earn. Beyond
those two things being completely accessible, the rest of life is up
to you. If you suck, you suck. If you fail, you fail. Only when
education and medical care is truly guaranteed for all can you really
embrace law of the jungle and true libertarian principles. Any way...
That's what I want. Education and medicine at your disposal and after
that, go see Ayn Rand if you suck.


If we gave a crap about the future of the Nation we would make sure every
single person had the opportunity to be educated to their fullest potential.
That is just common sense, it's in the best interest of the country. The
same goes for medical care. If the population is healthy the country is
healthy. And in that area we need to consider some other things such as
food and environment. I'm familiar with some areas where serious pollution
was allowed to go on with toxic dumping and officials looking the other way.
That result had devastating results for children and it will last and cost
for a long time. We need a healthy populace. If we privatize all
healthcare sources and an epidemic breaks out we are screwed...totally
screwed. The intent and plan of health insurance companies as they now
exist is not to provide care...but rather to limit it, restrict it and
provide the cheapest care possible. Ever since I went through a
catastrophic illness I have spent a considerable part of each week (the last
six plus years) dealing with crap created by insurance. When we look back
at it all, they spent more time trying not to pay for stuff they authorized
than any other single activity. For the most part, with a few glaring
exceptions, doctors were ok with billing accurately...but hospitals were
horrendous too...so with all the stuff created by hospitals and insurance
companies it is up to the patient to figure it all out...including where
they made mistakes. I've started out a phone call with a hospital owing
them thousands of dollars and ended with them owing me money. I also only
had ONE chance to stay alive...ONE hospital in the entire region could do
what was done...and it was OUT of network...so the bills were huge, BUT...I
could have gone to the in network facility and died...that was an option and
insurance reminded me of that a lot..."YOU made the choice to go out of
network." Our system is bizarre. The hospital they would have paid for is
the system I was in...and THEY sent me to the out of network place because
they threw in the towel. I really laugh at these politico clowns that think
a couple thousand dollars will buy someone good insurance...I'll buy into
that system when they subscribe to it too.


== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 9:48 am
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 12:28 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:f5574136-34e2-42d2-bd12-428732e8845f@t16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 14, 9:39 am, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:0e5d7bc3-8347-43f6-baba-aa310e9c2b39@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> > > Care to take the test and share ???
>
> > >http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> > > I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi
>
> > And no surprise...I'm to the left and below you. I do have an issue with
> > the scaling on the test though. I found myself being forced to either
> > agree
> > or disagree with quite a few questions that I'm truly neutral on....I'm
> > old
> > and I flat out don't give a damn about some stuff.
>
> How would you classify a person fiscally speaking, that does not
> believe in socialism AT ALL, but thinks a few things should be
> "socialized" ???  IMHO... In order to really give people an equal
> chance, everyone must have two things served up on a platter for
> them.  In life, if you can get a doctor when you need one and a
> teacher when  you want one, IHMO, you have nothing left to complain
> about no matter how flat you fall on your face.  I don t know how you
> would do it, but medical care and education up to the highest level
> should be "FREE" for every single person.  Not the bull shit we have
> now.   It should be where all you have to do is demonstrate that you
> want higher education, and thus,  you can go from grade school to IV
> league unencumbered.  Same deal with medicine.  You need it, you get
> it, no matter where or who you are or how little you earn.  Beyond
> those two things being completely accessible, the rest of life is up
> to you.  If you suck, you suck.  If you fail, you fail.  Only when
> education and medical care is truly guaranteed for all can you really
> embrace law of the jungle and true libertarian principles. Any way...
> That's what I want.  Education and medicine at your disposal and after
> that, go see Ayn Rand if you suck.
>
> If we gave a crap about the future of the Nation we would make sure every
> single person had the opportunity to be educated to their fullest potential.
> That is just common sense, it's in the best interest of the country.  The
> same goes for medical care.  If the population is healthy the country is
> healthy.  And in that area we need to consider some other things such as
> food and environment.  I'm familiar with some areas where serious pollution
> was allowed to go on with toxic dumping and officials looking the other way.
> That result had devastating results for children and it will last and cost
> for a long time.  We need a healthy populace.  If we privatize all
> healthcare sources and an epidemic breaks out we are screwed...totally
> screwed.  The intent and plan of health insurance companies as they now
> exist is not to provide care...but rather to limit it, restrict it and
> provide the cheapest care possible.  Ever since I went through a
> catastrophic illness I have spent a considerable part of each week (the last
> six plus years) dealing with crap created by insurance.  When we look back
> at it all, they spent more time trying not to pay for stuff they authorized
> than any other single activity.  For the most part, with a few glaring
> exceptions, doctors were ok with billing accurately...but hospitals were
> horrendous too...so with all the stuff created by hospitals and insurance
> companies it is up to the patient to figure it all out...including where
> they made mistakes.  I've started out a phone call with a hospital owing
> them thousands of dollars and ended with them owing me money.  I also only
> had ONE chance to stay alive...ONE hospital in the entire region could do
> what was done...and it was OUT of network...so the bills were huge, BUT...I
> could have gone to the in network facility and died...that was an option and
> insurance reminded me of that a lot..."YOU made the choice to go out of
> network."  Our system is bizarre.  The hospital they would have paid for is
> the system I was in...and THEY sent me to the out of network place because
> they threw in the towel.  I really laugh at these politico clowns that think
> a couple thousand dollars will buy someone good insurance...I'll buy into
> that system when they subscribe to it too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Let's not forget education. I'd prefer to have a country of very
healthy as well as cultured, educated and productive people. Not just
a country of very healthy animals. The kind that make excuses.
Anachronistic excuses that the media still teaches some people to
reach for.


== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 10:59 am
From: MZ


On Apr 14, 12:48 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 12:28 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:f5574136-34e2-42d2-bd12-428732e8845f@t16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 14, 9:39 am, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:0e5d7bc3-8347-43f6-baba-aa310e9c2b39@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> > > > Care to take the test and share ???
>
> > > >http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> > > > I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi
>
> > > And no surprise...I'm to the left and below you. I do have an issue with
> > > the scaling on the test though. I found myself being forced to either
> > > agree
> > > or disagree with quite a few questions that I'm truly neutral on....I'm
> > > old
> > > and I flat out don't give a damn about some stuff.
>
> > How would you classify a person fiscally speaking, that does not
> > believe in socialism AT ALL, but thinks a few things should be
> > "socialized" ???  IMHO... In order to really give people an equal
> > chance, everyone must have two things served up on a platter for
> > them.  In life, if you can get a doctor when you need one and a
> > teacher when  you want one, IHMO, you have nothing left to complain
> > about no matter how flat you fall on your face.  I don t know how you
> > would do it, but medical care and education up to the highest level
> > should be "FREE" for every single person.  Not the bull shit we have
> > now.   It should be where all you have to do is demonstrate that you
> > want higher education, and thus,  you can go from grade school to IV
> > league unencumbered.  Same deal with medicine.  You need it, you get
> > it, no matter where or who you are or how little you earn.  Beyond
> > those two things being completely accessible, the rest of life is up
> > to you.  If you suck, you suck.  If you fail, you fail.  Only when
> > education and medical care is truly guaranteed for all can you really
> > embrace law of the jungle and true libertarian principles. Any way...
> > That's what I want.  Education and medicine at your disposal and after
> > that, go see Ayn Rand if you suck.
>
> > If we gave a crap about the future of the Nation we would make sure every
> > single person had the opportunity to be educated to their fullest potential.
> > That is just common sense, it's in the best interest of the country.  The
> > same goes for medical care.  If the population is healthy the country is
> > healthy.  And in that area we need to consider some other things such as
> > food and environment.  I'm familiar with some areas where serious pollution
> > was allowed to go on with toxic dumping and officials looking the other way.
> > That result had devastating results for children and it will last and cost
> > for a long time.  We need a healthy populace.  If we privatize all
> > healthcare sources and an epidemic breaks out we are screwed...totally
> > screwed.  The intent and plan of health insurance companies as they now
> > exist is not to provide care...but rather to limit it, restrict it and
> > provide the cheapest care possible.  Ever since I went through a
> > catastrophic illness I have spent a considerable part of each week (the last
> > six plus years) dealing with crap created by insurance.  When we look back
> > at it all, they spent more time trying not to pay for stuff they authorized
> > than any other single activity.  For the most part, with a few glaring
> > exceptions, doctors were ok with billing accurately...but hospitals were
> > horrendous too...so with all the stuff created by hospitals and insurance
> > companies it is up to the patient to figure it all out...including where
> > they made mistakes.  I've started out a phone call with a hospital owing
> > them thousands of dollars and ended with them owing me money.  I also only
> > had ONE chance to stay alive...ONE hospital in the entire region could do
> > what was done...and it was OUT of network...so the bills were huge, BUT...I
> > could have gone to the in network facility and died...that was an option and
> > insurance reminded me of that a lot..."YOU made the choice to go out of
> > network."  Our system is bizarre.  The hospital they would have paid for is
> > the system I was in...and THEY sent me to the out of network place because
> > they threw in the towel.  I really laugh at these politico clowns that think
> > a couple thousand dollars will buy someone good insurance...I'll buy into
> > that system when they subscribe to it too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Let's not forget education.  I'd prefer to have a country of very
> healthy as well as cultured, educated and productive people. Not just
> a country of very healthy animals.  The kind that make excuses.
> Anachronistic excuses that the media still teaches some people to
> reach for.

Not meaning to gum up the works again, as it appeared I annoyed you in
the other thread, but I think your proposed system is way too
simplistic to be practical. Especially in light of the fiscal
situation that isn't going away anytime soon. I'm going to invoke a
John C here and mention that in either system, somebody is going to
have to play gatekeeper. Somebody is going to tell you when too much
medical care is too much, or when too many degrees is enough. Will
your system allow a 90 year old grandma with terminal cancer to get
two knee replacements? How long do you keep a brain dead patient on
machines? Should unlimited abortions be paid for, even though many
(if not most) taxpayers would ethically object to it? In principle, I
agree with you that people shouldn't be left to die because they don't
have enough money for a simple medical treatment, but there are huge
shades of gray here, and I'm not confident that we can clarify those
shades in the political arena. It's a tough question no doubt.

Education is a tougher question in my mind. I think american
schooling in its present form is excessive and economically
unproductive. A system where it's even easier to gain education will
make things costlier and even more inefficient. Personally, I think
society should be moving in the OPPOSITE direction of what you
propose, perhaps modeling the system a little more closely to European
and Asian approaches. I think excessive schooling (measured in years)
leads to delayed maturity, more "freeloaders" (in an economic sense),
and frankly has very little benefit. More care should be taken to
teaching children, not 18 year olds, IMO. Formative years ... that's
where it's at. Beyond that, let adults be adults. Productive adults,
hopefully. Not a society full of grown up kids sitting in chairs
listening to a self-proclaimed expert speak about something that's
probably irrelevant. -- this latter point is actually tightly
interwoven with the other thread and the corporate economy, etc.


== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:27 am
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 1:59 pm, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 12:48 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 12:28 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:f5574136-34e2-42d2-bd12-428732e8845f@t16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 14, 9:39 am, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:0e5d7bc3-8347-43f6-baba-aa310e9c2b39@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > > I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> > > > > Care to take the test and share ???
>
> > > > >http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> > > > > I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi
>
> > > > And no surprise...I'm to the left and below you. I do have an issue with
> > > > the scaling on the test though. I found myself being forced to either
> > > > agree
> > > > or disagree with quite a few questions that I'm truly neutral on....I'm
> > > > old
> > > > and I flat out don't give a damn about some stuff.
>
> > > How would you classify a person fiscally speaking, that does not
> > > believe in socialism AT ALL, but thinks a few things should be
> > > "socialized" ???  IMHO... In order to really give people an equal
> > > chance, everyone must have two things served up on a platter for
> > > them.  In life, if you can get a doctor when you need one and a
> > > teacher when  you want one, IHMO, you have nothing left to complain
> > > about no matter how flat you fall on your face.  I don t know how you
> > > would do it, but medical care and education up to the highest level
> > > should be "FREE" for every single person.  Not the bull shit we have
> > > now.   It should be where all you have to do is demonstrate that you
> > > want higher education, and thus,  you can go from grade school to IV
> > > league unencumbered.  Same deal with medicine.  You need it, you get
> > > it, no matter where or who you are or how little you earn.  Beyond
> > > those two things being completely accessible, the rest of life is up
> > > to you.  If you suck, you suck.  If you fail, you fail.  Only when
> > > education and medical care is truly guaranteed for all can you really
> > > embrace law of the jungle and true libertarian principles. Any way...
> > > That's what I want.  Education and medicine at your disposal and after
> > > that, go see Ayn Rand if you suck.
>
> > > If we gave a crap about the future of the Nation we would make sure every
> > > single person had the opportunity to be educated to their fullest potential.
> > > That is just common sense, it's in the best interest of the country.  The
> > > same goes for medical care.  If the population is healthy the country is
> > > healthy.  And in that area we need to consider some other things such as
> > > food and environment.  I'm familiar with some areas where serious pollution
> > > was allowed to go on with toxic dumping and officials looking the other way.
> > > That result had devastating results for children and it will last and cost
> > > for a long time.  We need a healthy populace.  If we privatize all
> > > healthcare sources and an epidemic breaks out we are screwed...totally
> > > screwed.  The intent and plan of health insurance companies as they now
> > > exist is not to provide care...but rather to limit it, restrict it and
> > > provide the cheapest care possible.  Ever since I went through a
> > > catastrophic illness I have spent a considerable part of each week (the last
> > > six plus years) dealing with crap created by insurance.  When we look back
> > > at it all, they spent more time trying not to pay for stuff they authorized
> > > than any other single activity.  For the most part, with a few glaring
> > > exceptions, doctors were ok with billing accurately...but hospitals were
> > > horrendous too...so with all the stuff created by hospitals and insurance
> > > companies it is up to the patient to figure it all out...including where
> > > they made mistakes.  I've started out a phone call with a hospital owing
> > > them thousands of dollars and ended with them owing me money.  I also only
> > > had ONE chance to stay alive...ONE hospital in the entire region could do
> > > what was done...and it was OUT of network...so the bills were huge, BUT...I
> > > could have gone to the in network facility and died...that was an option and
> > > insurance reminded me of that a lot..."YOU made the choice to go out of
> > > network."  Our system is bizarre.  The hospital they would have paid for is
> > > the system I was in...and THEY sent me to the out of network place because
> > > they threw in the towel.  I really laugh at these politico clowns that think
> > > a couple thousand dollars will buy someone good insurance...I'll buy into
> > > that system when they subscribe to it too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Let's not forget education.  I'd prefer to have a country of very
> > healthy as well as cultured, educated and productive people. Not just
> > a country of very healthy animals.  The kind that make excuses.
> > Anachronistic excuses that the media still teaches some people to
> > reach for.
>
> Not meaning to gum up the works again, as it appeared I annoyed you in
> the other thread, but I think your proposed system is way too
> simplistic to be practical.  Especially in light of the fiscal
> situation that isn't going away anytime soon.  I'm going to invoke a
> John C here and mention that in either system, somebody is going to
> have to play gatekeeper.  Somebody is going to tell you when too much
> medical care is too much, or when too many degrees is enough.  Will
> your system allow a 90 year old grandma with terminal cancer to get
> two knee replacements?  How long do you keep a brain dead patient on
> machines?  Should unlimited abortions be paid for, even though many
> (if not most) taxpayers would ethically object to it?  In principle, I
> agree with you that people shouldn't be left to die because they don't
> have enough money for a simple medical treatment, but there are huge
> shades of gray here, and I'm not confident that we can clarify those
> shades in the political arena.  It's a tough question no doubt.
>
> Education is a tougher question in my mind.  I think american
> schooling in its present form is excessive and economically
> unproductive.  A system where it's even easier to gain education will
> make things costlier and even more inefficient.  Personally, I think
> society should be moving in the OPPOSITE direction of what you
> propose, perhaps modeling the system a little more closely to European
> and Asian approaches.  I think excessive schooling (measured in years)
> leads to delayed maturity, more "freeloaders" (in an economic sense),
> and frankly has very little benefit.  More care should be taken to
> teaching children, not 18 year olds, IMO.  Formative years ... that's
> where it's at.  Beyond that, let adults be adults.  Productive adults,
> hopefully.  Not a society full of grown up kids sitting in chairs
> listening to a self-proclaimed expert speak about something that's
> probably irrelevant.  -- this latter point is actually tightly
> interwoven with the other thread and the corporate economy, etc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

No need to concern yourself with annoying me… I appreciate the
discussion. And I agree 100 % with what you wrote above. My "model
society" as detailed above is not a comprehensive model by any stretch
of the imagination. It is more a reflection of my conflicted view of
capitalism ala America 2011. On one hand, free market and reward
amount based on ability and effort level strikes me just fine. It
feels natural. On the other hand, how can you say there is an equal
chance for two people equally talented and equally motivated unless
things like education and medicine are available to all ??? No system
is ideal, but as much as I agree with tooth and claw competition, both
teams should get to wear a helmet and shoulder pads.


== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 1:03 pm
From: John C TX


X-No-Archive: Yes

>
> > >news:f5574136-34e2-42d2-bd12-428732e8845f@t16g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 14, 9:39 am, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:0e5d7bc3-8347-43f6-baba-aa310e9c2b39@e26g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > > > I'm interested to see who's who in here.
>
> > > > > Care to take the test and share ???
>
> > > > >http://politicalcompass.org/
>
> > > > > I am right in the center of the "libertarian left" quarter near Ghandi
>
> > > > And no surprise...I'm to the left and below you. I do have an issue with
> > > > the scaling on the test though. I found myself being forced to either
> > > > agree
> > > > or disagree with quite a few questions that I'm truly neutral on....I'm
> > > > old
> > > > and I flat out don't give a damn about some stuff.
>
> > > How would you classify a person fiscally speaking, that does not
> > > believe in socialism AT ALL, but thinks a few things should be
> > > "socialized" ???  IMHO... In order to really give people an equal
> > > chance, everyone must have two things served up on a platter for
> > > them.  In life, if you can get a doctor when you need one and a
> > > teacher when  you want one, IHMO, you have nothing left to complain
> > > about no matter how flat you fall on your face.  I don t know how you
> > > would do it, but medical care and education up to the highest level
> > > should be "FREE" for every single person.  Not the bull shit we have
> > > now.   It should be where all you have to do is demonstrate that you
> > > want higher education, and thus,  you can go from grade school to IV
> > > league unencumbered.  Same deal with medicine.  You need it, you get
> > > it, no matter where or who you are or how little you earn.  Beyond
> > > those two things being completely accessible, the rest of life is up
> > > to you.  If you suck, you suck.  If you fail, you fail.  Only when
> > > education and medical care is truly guaranteed for all can you really
> > > embrace law of the jungle and true libertarian principles. Any way...
> > > That's what I want.  Education and medicine at your disposal and after
> > > that, go see Ayn Rand if you suck.
>
> > > If we gave a crap about the future of the Nation we would make sure every
> > > single person had the opportunity to be educated to their fullest potential.
> > > That is just common sense, it's in the best interest of the country.  The
> > > same goes for medical care.  If the population is healthy the country is
> > > healthy.  And in that area we need to consider some other things such as
> > > food and environment.  I'm familiar with some areas where serious pollution
> > > was allowed to go on with toxic dumping and officials looking the other way.
> > > That result had devastating results for children and it will last and cost
> > > for a long time.  We need a healthy populace.  If we privatize all
> > > healthcare sources and an epidemic breaks out we are screwed...totally
> > > screwed.  The intent and plan of health insurance companies as they now
> > > exist is not to provide care...but rather to limit it, restrict it and
> > > provide the cheapest care possible.  Ever since I went through a
> > > catastrophic illness I have spent a considerable part of each week (the last
> > > six plus years) dealing with crap created by insurance.  When we look back
> > > at it all, they spent more time trying not to pay for stuff they authorized
> > > than any other single activity.  For the most part, with a few glaring
> > > exceptions, doctors were ok with billing accurately...but hospitals were
> > > horrendous too...so with all the stuff created by hospitals and insurance
> > > companies it is up to the patient to figure it all out...including where
> > > they made mistakes.  I've started out a phone call with a hospital owing
> > > them thousands of dollars and ended with them owing me money.  I also only
> > > had ONE chance to stay alive...ONE hospital in the entire region could do
> > > what was done...and it was OUT of network...so the bills were huge, BUT...I
> > > could have gone to the in network facility and died...that was an option and
> > > insurance reminded me of that a lot..."YOU made the choice to go out of
> > > network."  Our system is bizarre.  The hospital they would have paid for is
> > > the system I was in...and THEY sent me to the out of network place because
> > > they threw in the towel.  I really laugh at these politico clowns that think
> > > a couple thousand dollars will buy someone good insurance...I'll buy into
> > > that system when they subscribe to it too.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Let's not forget education.  I'd prefer to have a country of very
> > healthy as well as cultured, educated and productive people. Not just
> > a country of very healthy animals.  The kind that make excuses.
> > Anachronistic excuses that the media still teaches some people to
> > reach for.
>
> Not meaning to gum up the works again, as it appeared I annoyed you in
> the other thread, but I think your proposed system is way too
> simplistic to be practical.  Especially in light of the fiscal
> situation that isn't going away anytime soon.  I'm going to invoke a
> John C here and mention that in either system, somebody is going to
> have to play gatekeeper.  Somebody is going to tell you when too much
> medical care is too much, or when too many degrees is enough.  Will
> your system allow a 90 year old grandma with terminal cancer to get
> two knee replacements?  How long do you keep a brain dead patient on
> machines?  Should unlimited abortions be paid for, even though many
> (if not most) taxpayers would ethically object to it?  In principle, I
> agree with you that people shouldn't be left to die because they don't
> have enough money for a simple medical treatment, but there are huge
> shades of gray here, and I'm not confident that we can clarify those
> shades in the political arena.  It's a tough question no doubt.
>
> Education is a tougher question in my mind.  I think american
> schooling in its present form is excessive and economically
> unproductive.  A system where it's even easier to gain education will
> make things costlier and even more inefficient.  Personally, I think
> society should be moving in the OPPOSITE direction of what you
> propose, perhaps modeling the system a little more closely to European
> and Asian approaches.  I think excessive schooling (measured in years)
> leads to delayed maturity, more "freeloaders" (in an economic sense),
> and frankly has very little benefit.  More care should be taken to
> teaching children, not 18 year olds, IMO.  Formative years ... that's
> where it's at.  Beyond that, let adults be adults.  Productive adults,
> hopefully.  Not a society full of grown up kids sitting in chairs
> listening to a self-proclaimed expert speak about something that's
> probably irrelevant.  -- this latter point is actually tightly
> interwoven with the other thread and the corporate economy, etc.
JohnC??? You are so f***ed!

:)

I will stay away from healthcare because you will all fall asleep.

On education I agree with Mark on many of his points. My big issue is
that we don't stress to kids that school is one part of the education
and that education is a lifetime process.

As for the test, like Papa, some of the questions are BS.

eg.

On the question about school & religion, that is my choice, so does
that make a leftie or a rightie? I have right wing friends who would
say no & left wing friends that might say yes to that.

There were a bunch more.

Oh, I was in the green: two to the left of the axis and four below the
axis.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sanchez "When Obama Shows His Birth Certificate, I'll Show Mine!"
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/082083e59c3b9326?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 6:49 am
From: MZ


On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical experts
> > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the right
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the dictator
> > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea that he
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what ever
> > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an *a-political*
> > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is not
> > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive and
> > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most similar
> > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by means of
> > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is becoming no
> > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the surfs.
> > > > > > Much
> > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a symbiotic
> > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits the
> > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html). Undoubtedly,
> > > > > this
> > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt, money,
> > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think it's a
> > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of people
> > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they often
> > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your left and
> > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on the
> > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations aggrandize.
> > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter of
> > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see even
> > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator is
> > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations know
> > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > two centuries ago.
>
> > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state.  That
> > is not what we have now.  In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > dictatorship.  People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > reaches the point where they dont have to listen.  At the beginning,
> > they have to play ball.  Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > they can.  We dont have a fascist system.  We are not heading in that
> > difection either.  For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > person
> > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still think
> > it's right.  Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central party
> > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political".  a democratic
> government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> Anne's Revenge was.  i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism.  not
> fascism.

What does "economic market system" mean? And why do you consider
democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?


== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 7:00 am
From: John C TX


X-No-Archive: Yes

> Racism or prejudice isn't gone but I think it is better.  I think
> overall people generally are less racist than they were 30 years ago.
> The problem from top to bottom is that they are generally more selfish.
>
> You can make what you want out of this metaphor....
>
> Why is it members of PETA are more opposed to fur than they are leather?
>
> Middle aged, wealthy women are an easier target than Hell's Angels.
>
> That type of thing drives how a lot of people ACT outwardly....the overt
> racism is tamed...Perhaps it is only my experience, but it is what I've
> seen.

I see your point but I do think that overall it is better. People
don't accept police brutality of minorities. People in most
neighborhoods where they own-- that is a key point-- don't soil
themselves if an African-American moves in next door. It is not met
with a shrug if a homosexual is beaten up just for being gay, so yes,
I think things are better.

Bias and prejudice is always there in some form but I think the
bigger issue right now is classism. The link between where you grew
up, went to school, etc. seems to be growing and that isn't a left or
right issue. It is a right or wrong.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 7:44 am
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical experts
> > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the right
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the dictator
> > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea that he
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what ever
> > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an *a-political*
> > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is not
> > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive and
> > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most similar
> > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by means of
> > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is becoming no
> > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the surfs.
> > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a symbiotic
> > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits the
> > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html). Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt, money,
> > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think it's a
> > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of people
> > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they often
> > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your left and
> > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on the
> > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations aggrandize.
> > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter of
> > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see even
> > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator is
> > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations know
> > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state.  That
> > > is not what we have now.  In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > dictatorship.  People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen.  At the beginning,
> > > they have to play ball.  Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > they can.  We dont have a fascist system.  We are not heading in that
> > > difection either.  For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > person
> > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still think
> > > it's right.  Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central party
> > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political".  a democratic
> > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > Anne's Revenge was.  i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism.  not
> > fascism.
>
> What does "economic market system" mean?  And why do you consider
> democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Mark… Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
point of what I am saying. I don't agree with labeling a democracy
with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body. Of course,
the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*. It has no
ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
wealth. What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
it as fascist.

What don't you get ???


== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 9:31 am
From: "Papa Carl"

"Michael" <mjd1966@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:2392b788-5f21-4b48-a98f-2be5c86e8741@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical
> > > > > > > experts
> > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the
> > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the
> > > > > > > dictator
> > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea
> > > > > > > that he
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what
> > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an
> > > > > > > *a-political*
> > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most
> > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by
> > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is
> > > > > > > becoming no
> > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the
> > > > > > > surfs.
> > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a
> > > > > > symbiotic
> > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html).
> > > > > > Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt,
> > > > > > money,
> > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think
> > > > > > it's a
> > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they
> > > > > > often
> > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your
> > > > > > left and
> > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on
> > > > > the
> > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations
> > > > > aggrandize.
> > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter
> > > > > of
> > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see
> > > > > even
> > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator
> > > > is
> > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations
> > > > know
> > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state. That
> > > is not what we have now. In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > dictatorship. People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen. At the beginning,
> > > they have to play ball. Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > they can. We dont have a fascist system. We are not heading in that
> > > difection either. For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > person
> > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still
> > > think
> > > it's right. Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central
> > > party
> > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide
> > > quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political". a democratic
> > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > Anne's Revenge was. i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism. not
> > fascism.
>
> What does "economic market system" mean? And why do you consider
> democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted
> text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Mark� Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
point of what I am saying. I don�t agree with labeling a democracy
with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body. Of course,
the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*. It has no
ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
wealth. What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
it as fascist.

What don�t you get ???

Michael...you compartmentalize things....you don't see how they
intertwine....of course a financial system can be the defacto government and
make the decisions.


== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 10:46 am
From: MZ


On Apr 14, 10:44 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical experts
> > > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the right
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the dictator
> > > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea that he
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what ever
> > > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an *a-political*
> > > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is not
> > > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive and
> > > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most similar
> > > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by means of
> > > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is becoming no
> > > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the surfs.
> > > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a symbiotic
> > > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits the
> > > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html). Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt, money,
> > > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think it's a
> > > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of people
> > > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they often
> > > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your left and
> > > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on the
> > > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations aggrandize.
> > > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter of
> > > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see even
> > > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator is
> > > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations know
> > > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state.  That
> > > > is not what we have now.  In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > > dictatorship.  People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen.  At the beginning,
> > > > they have to play ball.  Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > > they can.  We dont have a fascist system.  We are not heading in that
> > > > difection either.  For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > > person
> > > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still think
> > > > it's right.  Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central party
> > > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political".  a democratic
> > > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > > Anne's Revenge was.  i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism.  not
> > > fascism.
>
> > What does "economic market system" mean?  And why do you consider
> > democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Mark… Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
> point of what I am saying.  I don't agree with labeling a democracy
> with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body.  Of course,
> the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
> be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
> inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*.  It has no
> ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
> wealth.  What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
> taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
> you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
> which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
> Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
> it as fascist.
>
> What don't you get ???

What don't I get? What I don't get is what you're calling "democracy"
and "economic market system." I really have no idea what the latter
term means. I *think* you're referring to a capitalistic system, but
I'm not sure since you wouldn't clarify. If so, fascist governments
frequently operate under capitalist systems. If you mean something
else, you should say it because I have no clue what "economic market
system" means. You're not helping me out here.

"Democracy" is an irrelevant term in the discussion, IMO. You can
have socialist, capitalist, free market, communist, and fascist
systems all elected by popular vote. So I'm not sure where you're
going with that either.


== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 10:59 am
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 12:31 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:2392b788-5f21-4b48-a98f-2be5c86e8741@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical
> > > > > > > > experts
> > > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the
> > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the
> > > > > > > > dictator
> > > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea
> > > > > > > > that he
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what
> > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an
> > > > > > > > *a-political*
> > > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is
> > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most
> > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by
> > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is
> > > > > > > > becoming no
> > > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the
> > > > > > > > surfs.
> > > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a
> > > > > > > symbiotic
> > > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html).
> > > > > > > Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt,
> > > > > > > money,
> > > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think
> > > > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of
> > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they
> > > > > > > often
> > > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your
> > > > > > > left and
> > > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations
> > > > > > aggrandize.
> > > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator
> > > > > is
> > > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations
> > > > > know
> > > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state. That
> > > > is not what we have now. In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > > dictatorship. People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen. At the beginning,
> > > > they have to play ball. Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > > they can. We dont have a fascist system. We are not heading in that
> > > > difection either. For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > > person
> > > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still
> > > > think
> > > > it's right. Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central
> > > > party
> > > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide
> > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political". a democratic
> > > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > > Anne's Revenge was. i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism. not
> > > fascism.
>
> > What does "economic market system" mean? And why do you consider
> > democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted
> > text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Mark� Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
> point of what I am saying.  I don�t agree with labeling a democracy
> with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body.  Of course,
> the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
> be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
> inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*.  It has no
> ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
> wealth.  What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
> taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
> you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
> which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
> Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
> it as fascist.
>
> What don�t you get ???
>
> Michael...you compartmentalize things....you don't see how they
> intertwine....of course a financial system can be the defacto government and
> make the decisions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes... Power brokers inside of a financial system can become a
*defecto government* ... That is not being questions. But it can not
be specifically a *fascist* government no matter how much control it
can exert. The word*fascism* should not be used as a rubber stamp for
every form of self serving government. As I explained above… To be
specifically *fascist*, you need to have a well defined sociopolitical
ideology to which the power broker(s) bends economic conditions. A
run away financial/economic system without a preceding sociopolitical
agenda that is based on ideology for the sake of collective national
good is NOT a fascist system. Call it something else.


== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:05 am
From: MZ


On Apr 14, 1:59 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 12:31 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:2392b788-5f21-4b48-a98f-2be5c86e8741@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> > On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical
> > > > > > > > > experts
> > > > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the
> > > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the
> > > > > > > > > dictator
> > > > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea
> > > > > > > > > that he
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what
> > > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an
> > > > > > > > > *a-political*
> > > > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive
> > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most
> > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by
> > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is
> > > > > > > > > becoming no
> > > > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the
> > > > > > > > > surfs.
> > > > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a
> > > > > > > > symbiotic
> > > > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html).
> > > > > > > > Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt,
> > > > > > > > money,
> > > > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think
> > > > > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of
> > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they
> > > > > > > > often
> > > > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your
> > > > > > > > left and
> > > > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations
> > > > > > > aggrandize.
> > > > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see
> > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations
> > > > > > know
> > > > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state. That
> > > > > is not what we have now. In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > > > dictatorship. People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen. At the beginning,
> > > > > they have to play ball. Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > > > they can. We dont have a fascist system. We are not heading in that
> > > > > difection either. For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > > > person
> > > > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still
> > > > > think
> > > > > it's right. Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central
> > > > > party
> > > > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide
> > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political". a democratic
> > > > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > > > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > > > Anne's Revenge was. i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism. not
> > > > fascism.
>
> > > What does "economic market system" mean? And why do you consider
> > > democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted
> > > text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Mark� Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
> > point of what I am saying.  I don�t agree with labeling a democracy
> > with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body.  Of course,
> > the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
> > be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
> > inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*.  It has no
> > ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
> > wealth.  What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
> > taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
> > you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
> > which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
> > Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
> > it as fascist.
>
> > What don�t you get ???
>
> > Michael...you compartmentalize things....you don't see how they
> > intertwine....of course a financial system can be the defacto government and
> > make the decisions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Yes... Power brokers inside of a financial system can become a
> *defecto government* ... That is not being questions.  But it can not
> be specifically a *fascist* government no matter how much control it
> can exert.  The word*fascism* should not be used as a rubber stamp for
> every form of self serving government.  As I explained above… To be
> specifically *fascist*, you need to have a well defined sociopolitical
> ideology to which the power broker(s) bends economic conditions.  A
> run away financial/economic system without a preceding sociopolitical
> agenda that is based on ideology for the sake of collective national
> good is NOT a fascist system.  Call it something else.

The US economic system does not have a "sociopolitical idealogy to
which the power broker(s) bend economic conditions"? Economic
conditions are almost universally manipulated by the government, the
federal reserve, and those who stand to profit from both.


== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 11:34 am
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 2:05 pm, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 1:59 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 12:31 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > >news:2392b788-5f21-4b48-a98f-2be5c86e8741@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> > > On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical
> > > > > > > > > > experts
> > > > > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the
> > > > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the
> > > > > > > > > > dictator
> > > > > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea
> > > > > > > > > > that he
> > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what
> > > > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an
> > > > > > > > > > *a-political*
> > > > > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is
> > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most
> > > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by
> > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is
> > > > > > > > > > becoming no
> > > > > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the
> > > > > > > > > > surfs.
> > > > > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a
> > > > > > > > > symbiotic
> > > > > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html).
> > > > > > > > > Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt,
> > > > > > > > > money,
> > > > > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think
> > > > > > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of
> > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they
> > > > > > > > > often
> > > > > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your
> > > > > > > > > left and
> > > > > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on
> > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations
> > > > > > > > aggrandize.
> > > > > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter
> > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see
> > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations
> > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > > > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state. That
> > > > > > is not what we have now. In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > > > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > > > > dictatorship. People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > > > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > > > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen. At the beginning,
> > > > > > they have to play ball. Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > > > > they can. We dont have a fascist system. We are not heading in that
> > > > > > difection either. For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > > > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > > > > person
> > > > > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > it's right. Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central
> > > > > > party
> > > > > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide
> > > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political". a democratic
> > > > > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > > > > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > > > > Anne's Revenge was. i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism. not
> > > > > fascism.
>
> > > > What does "economic market system" mean? And why do you consider
> > > > democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted
> > > > text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Mark� Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
> > > point of what I am saying.  I don�t agree with labeling a democracy
> > > with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body.  Of course,
> > > the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
> > > be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
> > > inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*.  It has no
> > > ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
> > > wealth.  What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
> > > taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
> > > you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
> > > which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
> > > Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
> > > it as fascist.
>
> > > What don�t you get ???
>
> > > Michael...you compartmentalize things....you don't see how they
> > > intertwine....of course a financial system can be the defacto government and
> > > make the decisions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Yes... Power brokers inside of a financial system can become a
> > *defecto government* ... That is not being questions.  But it can not
> > be specifically a *fascist* government no matter how much control it
> > can exert.  The word*fascism* should not be used as a rubber stamp for
> > every form of self serving government.  As I explained above… To be
> > specifically *fascist*, you need to have a well defined sociopolitical
> > ideology to which the power broker(s) bends economic conditions.  A
> > run away financial/economic system without a preceding sociopolitical
> > agenda that is based on ideology for the sake of collective national
> > good is NOT a fascist system.  Call it something else.
>
> The US economic system does not have a "sociopolitical idealogy to
> which the power broker(s) bend economic conditions"?  Economic
> conditions are almost universally manipulated by the government, the
> federal reserve, and those who stand to profit from both.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

A capitalist economic system as en entity beginning to supersede a
political system has as its base, no political or ideological gods
other than accumulation of wealth and power. The power brokers may
have individual agendas and ideologies, but the system itself has no
collective goals past accumulation.


== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 1:26 pm
From: MZ


On Apr 14, 2:34 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 2:05 pm, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 14, 1:59 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 14, 12:31 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > >news:2392b788-5f21-4b48-a98f-2be5c86e8741@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> > > > On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical
> > > > > > > > > > > experts
> > > > > > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the
> > > > > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the
> > > > > > > > > > > dictator
> > > > > > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea
> > > > > > > > > > > that he
> > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what
> > > > > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an
> > > > > > > > > > > *a-political*
> > > > > > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is
> > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most
> > > > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by
> > > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is
> > > > > > > > > > > becoming no
> > > > > > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the
> > > > > > > > > > > surfs.
> > > > > > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a
> > > > > > > > > > symbiotic
> > > > > > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html).
> > > > > > > > > > Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt,
> > > > > > > > > > money,
> > > > > > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think
> > > > > > > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of
> > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they
> > > > > > > > > > often
> > > > > > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your
> > > > > > > > > > left and
> > > > > > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations
> > > > > > > > > aggrandize.
> > > > > > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see
> > > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > > > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > > > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator
> > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > > > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations
> > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > > > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > > > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > > > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > > > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > > > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > > > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > > > > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state. That
> > > > > > > is not what we have now. In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > > > > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > > > > > dictatorship. People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > > > > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > > > > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen. At the beginning,
> > > > > > > they have to play ball. Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > > > > > they can. We dont have a fascist system. We are not heading in that
> > > > > > > difection either. For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > > > > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > > > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > > > > > person
> > > > > > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still
> > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > it's right. Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central
> > > > > > > party
> > > > > > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide
> > > > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political". a democratic
> > > > > > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > > > > > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > > > > > Anne's Revenge was. i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism. not
> > > > > > fascism.
>
> > > > > What does "economic market system" mean? And why do you consider
> > > > > democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted
> > > > > text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Mark� Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
> > > > point of what I am saying.  I don�t agree with labeling a democracy
> > > > with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body.  Of course,
> > > > the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
> > > > be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
> > > > inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*.  It has no
> > > > ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
> > > > wealth.  What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
> > > > taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
> > > > you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
> > > > which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
> > > > Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
> > > > it as fascist.
>
> > > > What don�t you get ???
>
> > > > Michael...you compartmentalize things....you don't see how they
> > > > intertwine....of course a financial system can be the defacto government and
> > > > make the decisions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Yes... Power brokers inside of a financial system can become a
> > > *defecto government* ... That is not being questions.  But it can not
> > > be specifically a *fascist* government no matter how much control it
> > > can exert.  The word*fascism* should not be used as a rubber stamp for
> > > every form of self serving government.  As I explained above… To be
> > > specifically *fascist*, you need to have a well defined sociopolitical
> > > ideology to which the power broker(s) bends economic conditions.  A
> > > run away financial/economic system without a preceding sociopolitical
> > > agenda that is based on ideology for the sake of collective national
> > > good is NOT a fascist system.  Call it something else.
>
> > The US economic system does not have a "sociopolitical idealogy to
> > which the power broker(s) bend economic conditions"?  Economic
> > conditions are almost universally manipulated by the government, the
> > federal reserve, and those who stand to profit from both.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> A capitalist economic system as en entity beginning to supersede a
> political system has as its base, no political or ideological gods
> other than accumulation of wealth and power.  The power brokers may
> have individual agendas and ideologies, but the system itself has no
> collective goals past accumulation.

Sure it does. any economists), is the proper way to produce a good
economy (however we want to define it). They believe that
manipulation of markets is essential, as do probably most regular
americans honestly. The marriage between government and corporation
is the natural consequence of that ideology. As I said earlier, it's
not just corporations and politicians benefiting personally from it
(although that's probably playing a pretty big part...). It's an
economic philosophy. It goes by many names, fascism being awfully
close (corporatism and state capitalism probably also fitting the
bill). Did you read that entry I posted yesterday?


== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 1:35 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 4:26 pm, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 2:34 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 2:05 pm, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 14, 1:59 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Apr 14, 12:31 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > >news:2392b788-5f21-4b48-a98f-2be5c86e8741@bl1g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > On Apr 14, 9:49 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:17 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > >news:0af1fccd-82ab-4f67-b519-e06dbedb4572@r4g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 4:32 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > "MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > > > >news:f9d39e59-47f9-4adc-bdde-fe73040b4b55@22g2000prx.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 12:16 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 11:32 am, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Apr 13, 10:25 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > IMHO, fascism does not fit. With fascism, the state allows
> > > > > > > > > > > > privatization and a free market. The industrial and finical
> > > > > > > > > > > > experts
> > > > > > > > > > > > are left to run their own affairs. The dictator reserves the
> > > > > > > > > > > > right
> > > > > > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > step in at any time in any way and impose controls if the
> > > > > > > > > > > > dictator
> > > > > > > > > > > > sees fit. What underpins the dictators motives is the idea
> > > > > > > > > > > > that he
> > > > > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > > > > dong what is best for national interest as it applies to what
> > > > > > > > > > > > ever
> > > > > > > > > > > > ideology the dictator has in mind. Fascism is not an
> > > > > > > > > > > > *a-political*
> > > > > > > > > > > > system. We ve got something else going on. The government is
> > > > > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > pulling the strings. It is being lead by the nose. The motive
> > > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > methods of the puppet masters is not political. It is most
> > > > > > > > > > > > similar
> > > > > > > > > > > > that of Feudalistic lordships. Increase power and wealth by
> > > > > > > > > > > > means of
> > > > > > > > > > > > subjugation and resource management. The government is
> > > > > > > > > > > > becoming no
> > > > > > > > > > > > more than a inert vestige. A hollow tradition left for the
> > > > > > > > > > > > surfs.
> > > > > > > > > > > > Much
> > > > > > > > > > > > like a comforting religion for those on the bottom.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > I don't think the politicians and government in general are as
> > > > > > > > > > > powerless as you think, Michael. We constantly see these
> > > > > > > > > > > recalibrations (think Microsoft anti-trust, govt pressure on fed
> > > > > > > > > > > reserve, etc). I think the best description is that it's a
> > > > > > > > > > > symbiotic
> > > > > > > > > > > relationship between government and business, which I think fits
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > fascism description nicely (e.g. Richman's definition,
> > > > > > > > > > > here:http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html).
> > > > > > > > > > > Undoubtedly,
> > > > > > > > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > > cooperation is partly to do with behind-the-scenes, corrupt,
> > > > > > > > > > > money,
> > > > > > > > > > > etc, which I think is what you're implying. But I also think
> > > > > > > > > > > it's a
> > > > > > > > > > > product of a general economic philosophy held by most politicos,
> > > > > > > > > > > whether trickle-down as PapaCarl alluded to, or keynesianism
> > > > > > > > > > > (remember, "we're all keynesians now"). There are plenty of
> > > > > > > > > > > people
> > > > > > > > > > > outside the realm of influence who hold these values, and they
> > > > > > > > > > > often
> > > > > > > > > > > don't have anything to gain by it. Bottom line: look to your
> > > > > > > > > > > left and
> > > > > > > > > > > to your right. One of those people is a fascist. :)
>
> > > > > > > > > > Mark... The government is not that powerless now. IMHO, it is on
> > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > way to becoming so. This is somthing new. And I dont agree on your
> > > > > > > > > > definition of fascism. In a true fascist state, the dictator calls
> > > > > > > > > > the shots and he is not marginalized as the coprorations
> > > > > > > > > > aggrandize.
> > > > > > > > > > The "partnership" between the two is a "kleptocracy". As a matter
> > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > course, the corporations will over take the political body. If we
> > > > > > > > > > dont get a real "trust buster" president next time around, we are
> > > > > > > > > > toast. The only electable person in American politics that I see
> > > > > > > > > > even
> > > > > > > > > > approching that type is Christie.
>
> > > > > > > > > 1) The dictator IS calling the shots. If it appears that the
> > > > > > > > > corporations are calling the shots, it's only because the dictator
> > > > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > > allowing them to. The government could (and has) shut down or
> > > > > > > > > overtake any industry it wants in a nanosecond. The corporations
> > > > > > > > > know
> > > > > > > > > where their bread is buttered, and they pay tithe annually. And like
> > > > > > > > > I mentioned, as long as keynesianism is regarded as the prominent
> > > > > > > > > economic philosophy, governmental bodies will have no problem giving
> > > > > > > > > them free reign -- until they cross them.
> > > > > > > > > 2) None of this ^^^ is any different from how things were half a
> > > > > > > > > century ago, probably longer. And much of it is the same as it was
> > > > > > > > > two centuries ago.
>
> > > > > > > > Papa... That is in a true dictatorship...a real fascist state. That
> > > > > > > > is not what we have now. In our case, the corporations are bound to
> > > > > > > > outgrow the government... Rember... Our government is not a
> > > > > > > > dictatorship. People wont wind up on meat hooks or concentration
> > > > > > > > camps when the position, wealth and power of corporation/finance
> > > > > > > > reaches the point where they dont have to listen. At the beginning,
> > > > > > > > they have to play ball. Later on, they make up their own rules as
> > > > > > > > they can. We dont have a fascist system. We are not heading in that
> > > > > > > > difection either. For a fascist state, you need a totalitarian
> > > > > > > > GOVERNMENT dictator
>
> > > > > > > > > Me thinks you are right.......and a dictator does not need to be one
> > > > > > > > > person
> > > > > > > > > either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > You are responding to the wrong person...I just agreed and I still
> > > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > it's right. Totalitarian State does not mean ONE person....a central
> > > > > > > > party
> > > > > > > > can run things as a group, be very totalitarian and very fascist- Hide
> > > > > > > > quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > corporations and fincial institutions are "a-political". a democratic
> > > > > > > government compramised by an economic market system that has come
> > > > > > > uncorked is no more of a fascist state than Edward Teach's Queen
> > > > > > > Anne's Revenge was. i'll go with kleptocracy or neo feudalism. not
> > > > > > > fascism.
>
> > > > > > What does "economic market system" mean? And why do you consider
> > > > > > democratic elections and fascism to be mutually exclusive?- Hide quoted
> > > > > > text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > Mark� Why are you gumming up the works here ??? Look at the larger
> > > > > point of what I am saying.  I don�t agree with labeling a democracy
> > > > > with a rouge economic system as a fascist political body.  Of course,
> > > > > the corporations and financial institutions can impose their will to
> > > > > be detriment of the people, but that is not fascism. Such a system
> > > > > inside of a foundering plitical system is *A-POLITICAL*.  It has no
> > > > > ideological gods what so ever beyond accumulation of power and
> > > > > wealth.  What that is can be called a feudalistic system that is over
> > > > > taking a political body. In order to be called a fascist government,
> > > > > you absolutely must have a central sociopolitical national ideology to
> > > > > which the dictator or governing body bends the economy to comply with.
> > > > > Just because the neo lordship can impose their will, does not qualify
> > > > > it as fascist.
>
> > > > > What don�t you get ???
>
> > > > > Michael...you compartmentalize things....you don't see how they
> > > > > intertwine....of course a financial system can be the defacto government and
> > > > > make the decisions.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > Yes... Power brokers inside of a financial system can become a
> > > > *defecto government* ... That is not being questions.  But it can not
> > > > be specifically a *fascist* government no matter how much control it
> > > > can exert.  The word*fascism* should not be used as a rubber stamp for
> > > > every form of self serving government.  As I explained above… To be
> > > > specifically *fascist*, you need to have a well defined sociopolitical
> > > > ideology to which the power broker(s) bends economic conditions.  A
> > > > run away financial/economic system without a preceding sociopolitical
> > > > agenda that is based on ideology for the sake of collective national
> > > > good is NOT a fascist system.  Call it something else.
>
> > > The US economic system does not have a "sociopolitical idealogy to
> > > which the power broker(s) bend economic conditions"?  Economic
> > > conditions are almost universally manipulated by the government, the
> > > federal reserve, and those who stand to
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

yes... i read your post from the other day...

none the less... i dont think fascism is a good fit for describing
what we have been talking about. unless accumulaton of wealth for its
own sake can be considered the primary sociopolictical ideal, then
this it is not fascism. the only example of that sort of culture that
i can think of is a fictional example... the ferengi from star trek.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Interesting mock
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.sports.football.pro.ny-jets/t/4720a60b78602b98?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 9:29 am
From: Harlan Lachman


In article
<05e04d0d-5db4-4958-9280-f3a9a49142a5@i35g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
MZ <forums@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:

> Just watched this boston-centric mock draft where four guys took turns
> selecting for each team.
>
> http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post?id=4694719
>
> Good news as far as the Jets go is that two of the bigger defensive
> linemen were available when the Jets pick, including Phil Taylor who
> some say is the top rated true NT in the draft. If this plays out,
> this could be a good spot for the Jets and Tanny won't even have to
> trade up for a change.

All these Mocks band boards are just mental masturbation at this point.

If the Pats hit on just half of their first three round picks they will
fill three holes.

Jets have to hit them all to fill just two.

Bad odds.

H

PS. If I were the Pats, this would be the year I would trade up for
stars. 6 players are unlikely to crack their roster. They have so much
ammunition, they could get Brady's successor, one of the premier pass
rushers, and either a top CB or LB.

I just hope they keep trading down and taking what falls.

h


== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 10:41 am
From: MZ


On Apr 14, 12:29 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
> In article
> <05e04d0d-5db4-4958-9280-f3a9a4914...@i35g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> > Just watched this boston-centric mock draft where four guys took turns
> > selecting for each team.
>
> >http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post?id=4694719
>
> > Good news as far as the Jets go is that two of the bigger defensive
> > linemen were available when the Jets pick, including Phil Taylor who
> > some say is the top rated true NT in the draft.  If this plays out,
> > this could be a good spot for the Jets and Tanny won't even have to
> > trade up for a change.
>
> All these Mocks band boards are just mental masturbation at this point.
>
> If the Pats hit on just half of their first three round picks they will
> fill three holes.
>
> Jets have to hit them all to fill just two.
>
> Bad odds.
>
> H
>
> PS. If I were the Pats, this would be the year I would trade up for
> stars. 6 players are unlikely to crack their roster. They have so much
> ammunition, they could get Brady's successor, one of the premier pass
> rushers, and either a top CB or LB.
>
> I just hope they keep trading down and taking what falls.
>
> h

I kinda like how this one turns out for the Pats. A DE/DT to fill
Richard Seymour's vacancy with their first pick, and an edge rusher
with their second pick. I think they should trade up to also land the
best OG in the draft, probably Pouncey. That would mean turning their
#33 into a #15 or so, which would probably require they give up a 2nd
and 3rd rounder. I'd do it, they need quality not quantity.

I think the Jets can go either NT or DE and it will benefit them in
different ways. DE is almost preferable in my view, because it would
allow them to use him on the interior on passing downs and they'd be
able to kick Shaun Ellis out to rush from the edge like he used to.
That would solve both the interior rush issue and the edge rush issue
with a single pick. And it could help solidify the run D in the base
defense.


== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 12:22 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 1:41 pm, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 12:29 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <05e04d0d-5db4-4958-9280-f3a9a4914...@i35g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> > > Just watched this boston-centric mock draft where four guys took turns
> > > selecting for each team.
>
> > >http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post?id=4694719
>
> > > Good news as far as the Jets go is that two of the bigger defensive
> > > linemen were available when the Jets pick, including Phil Taylor who
> > > some say is the top rated true NT in the draft.  If this plays out,
> > > this could be a good spot for the Jets and Tanny won't even have to
> > > trade up for a change.
>
> > All these Mocks band boards are just mental masturbation at this point.
>
> > If the Pats hit on just half of their first three round picks they will
> > fill three holes.
>
> > Jets have to hit them all to fill just two.
>
> > Bad odds.
>
> > H
>
> > PS. If I were the Pats, this would be the year I would trade up for
> > stars. 6 players are unlikely to crack their roster. They have so much
> > ammunition, they could get Brady's successor, one of the premier pass
> > rushers, and either a top CB or LB.
>
> > I just hope they keep trading down and taking what falls.
>
> > h
>
> I kinda like how this one turns out for the Pats.  A DE/DT to fill
> Richard Seymour's vacancy with their first pick, and an edge rusher
> with their second pick.  I think they should trade up to also land the
> best OG in the draft, probably Pouncey.  That would mean turning their
> #33 into a #15 or so, which would probably require they give up a 2nd
> and 3rd rounder.  I'd do it, they need quality not quantity.
>
> I think the Jets can go either NT or DE and it will benefit them in
> different ways.  DE is almost preferable in my view, because it would
> allow them to use him on the interior on passing downs and they'd be
> able to kick Shaun Ellis out to rush from the edge like he used to.
> That would solve both the interior rush issue and the edge rush issue
> with a single pick.  And it could help solidify the run D in the base
> defense.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

agree 100 %. the best news for the jets in this year's draft... it
would seem as if they can draft for a need as well as take the best
rated player left on the board at the same time :-) it is almost a
sure bet that the top rated player left on the board when the jets
pick will be one of the d-line guys. will they go for beef in the
center, or skill on the edge ??? i also agree that taking a guy for
the edge would be the better way to go, should there be a toss up
between skill levels of an availaible DT/NT and DE. i also dont see
any real problems with devito and pouha. they are good in the
center. we may yet get jenkins back too, and this time smartly with a
brace on his knee. the current jets pass rushing manpower is far
behind that of what they have to man the gut.


== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 12:23 pm
From: HVAC


On 4/14/2011 12:29 PM, Harlan Lachman wrote:

>
> PS. If I were the Pats, this would be the year I would trade up for
> stars. 6 players are unlikely to crack their roster. They have so much
> ammunition, they could get Brady's successor, one of the premier pass
> rushers, and either a top CB or LB.


Especially this year where it is certain there
will be a rookie salary cap.


--
"OK you cunts, let's see what you can do now" -Hit Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjO7kBqTFqo


== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Apr 14 2011 12:29 pm
From: Michael


On Apr 14, 1:41 pm, MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 12:29 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <05e04d0d-5db4-4958-9280-f3a9a4914...@i35g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote:
> > > Just watched this boston-centric mock draft where four guys took turns
> > > selecting for each team.
>
> > >http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post?id=4694719
>
> > > Good news as far as the Jets go is that two of the bigger defensive
> > > linemen were available when the Jets pick, including Phil Taylor who
> > > some say is the top rated true NT in the draft.  If this plays out,
> > > this could be a good spot for the Jets and Tanny won't even have to
> > > trade up for a change.
>
> > All these Mocks band boards are just mental masturbation at this point.
>
> > If the Pats hit on just half of their first three round picks they will
> > fill three holes.
>
> > Jets have to hit them all to fill just two.
>
> > Bad odds.
>
> > H
>
> > PS. If I were the Pats, this would be the year I would trade up for
> > stars. 6 players are unlikely to crack their roster. They have so much
> > ammunition, they could get Brady's successor, one of the premier pass
> > rushers, and either a top CB or LB.
>
> > I just hope they keep trading down and taking what falls.
>
> > h
>
> I kinda like how this one turns out for the Pats.  A DE/DT to fill
> Richard Seymour's vacancy with their first pick, and an edge rusher
> with their second pick.  I think they should trade up to also land the
> best OG in the draft, probably Pouncey.  That would mean turning their
> #33 into a #15 or so, which would probably require they give up a 2nd
> and 3rd rounder.  I'd do it, they need quality not quantity.
>
> I think the Jets can go either NT or DE and it will benefit them in
> different ways.  DE is almost preferable in my view, because it would
> allow them to use him on the interior on passing downs and they'd be
> able to kick Shaun Ellis out to rush from the edge like he used to.
> That would solve both the interior rush issue and the edge rush issue
> with a single pick.  And it could help solidify the run D in the base
> defense.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

and the pats...they need a big play WR. not to win games... they will
do that... but to advance to the afc champ, they need a play maker.
will their be one available when they go ??? all i hear about is AJ
green. he'll be long gone by the time the pats go... so will julio
jones. so... unless they trade up and that aint gonna happen... they
need D-Line help as badly as the jets. i expect them to also draft for
the d-line...


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